^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^ ^^^
^^^ _______ ^^^
^^^ ,' - _ ^^^
^^^ ________,'__________>>> - _ ^ ^^^
^^^ , ' | ^^^
^^^ ~I~ I~I \ / I~I ~I~ .~. _ I\/I I~I I~\ <~ ^^^
^^^ I I_I | I_I I I~I I I I_I I_/ _> ^^^
^^^ `---\__/----------------\__/----' ^^^
^^^ ^^^
^^^ P O S T I N G S Apr 1994 ^^^
^^^ --------------------------- ^^^
^^^ ^^^
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 00:39:06 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Craig's Quest for Wheels !
On Mar 31, 5:47pm, Craig Pugsley wrote:
>> Subject: Interesting car hire in the US?
Aloha Craig ! From Down Under ? =)
>> I am going to the US on later this year for a holiday and was wondering
>> if ANYone can tell me if there are places in california or Hawaii
>> (Ted?) that hire 'interesting' cars (EG supra/ celica GT4/ porsche).
> What do you mean by hire? Do you mean as a rental? I do know of a couple
> of Rental places in Hawaii that do carry things like Lamborghini Contach
>& Diablo's, Ferrari 308, 328's, Daytonas (or kit car), Corvettes, and other
>popular exotic cars. The place is called Funway Rentals... Koji-san care to
>elaborate on this?
Heh... Sorta... I think you are looking for Japanese inports and in that case
you will be lucky to rent a 300 Twin Turbo Z or something. There are no
intrests in GT-4's (Celica All-Tracs) or Supras even. You can rent exotics
like Ferrari's, Lotus's, Vette's etc etc... geared toward the "Japanese"
market. I don't think the Toyota down here rents their cars out like
Nissan and a few other places do... I'll check how ever...
> As for California (atleast Northern Cal), I am all not that familiar.
> Aaron "Mr. Shiny", Gary "My Car feels good", or Phillip "Celica-boy"... care
>to supply some input?
Where and when are you going btw ? =)
Sorry also A lot of Porsche 911 Turbos etc etc...
-Allen T "Koji" Kam
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
| Allen T "Koji" Kam tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu |
| Life Life... koji@io.soest.hawaii.edu |
| Taste Death... koji%interact.uucp@netcom.com |
| Speed is Pure !!!!! |
| Don't let up till you see RED !! 1980 Toyota Trueno SR-5 Sports Coupe |
| Advan Racing / HKS / MSD / SSR / Toyota Racing Development / Yokohama Tires |
| V-8's are a Blast...but i kinna gotta have to save GAS !!! |
| How SERIOUS do YOU wanna GET ??!?!?!! Sum times ya GADA pay the Price.... |
| Love is the only ting dat has 2 be earned... |
| Eberry ting else can be hacked ! - Reflex the Kismet Thief of Hearts |
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 01:00:47 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Stuff.Backlog
Sorry I Can't respond to all the Mail I get these a days and 30 posts in
one day ! My my my ! No Waste of Bandwidth either ! =)
A Few points >I< noticed =)
First off "BB-Shotting" Your Emissions and such, the whole purpose is to
block the emission gasses reburning using a "bb" thus it is also easily
removeable for emissions once a year. Also you can hide such a modification
or compensate with timing and air fuel mixture to also pass emissions.
We don't have it here in Hawaii so I can't say it works on all Toyotas, but
from what I did work with in Nevada they do.
Second off... Someone said they were from Cali and moved to Nevada ? What
part in Nevada ? I used to goto UNLV and am going back in August or so...
Third off, about Gas Tanks and running "half tanks etc etc". For "Racing"
I do run a full tank of gas because of the "Sloshing" effect as noticed
or
commented already. However I did change my gas tank from the 10gallons to
a 5 gallon fuel cell for every day driving also. Actually its a 10 gallon
tank just shortened a bit to like 7 gallons I belive. I sorta forget. If I
need to run the full 10 gallon tank I have to take out a partician but this
I havent done in 2 years so -shrug-. Anyway I run about 5 Gallons of Gas and
get about 175 miles out of it. I even went so far as 225 one day. I drive an
adverage of 150 miles a day (FYI).
It has been noticed that Toyota bodyweight works best or most efficient starting
from 3/4 tank like on a 1988 GTS a test was done. A Full tank had the longest cruising range yes, but the car starting with 3/4 tank got the best performance and was only like 1 gallon "behind" in terms of ratio performance mpg.
Anyway... for racing purposes.. full tank else you do sputter or the weight
being thrown around like is spinning around holding a 10 gallon gas tank in
your hands.
I do race with 1/2 tank although cause my car is balanced 50/60 ratio as
with a SW-11 or MR-2's due to the gas tank being in the middle of the car.
Fouth off, about moisture in the gas. I use this thing Called "Mix-i-Go" its
a fuel additive and works the best to me. It reduces the water out and
gives ya a "slight" performance value. I recommend it.
Fifth off, anyone Played Ridge Racer ? They have a Virtua Indy in Las Vegas
that I wanna play. Ridge Racer is realistic however I have problems with the
set up of the car and its shiting gate. Anyway....
Oh... exhaust... someone wanted some exhaust for their car like cheap.
I would recommend going to some muffler shop you trust and getting like
well for what car also. Anything 4cyl non turbo go with a 1 1/2 pipe into
like a 1 1/2 inlet cherrybomb glasspack type muffler with a 1 3/4 outlet
into a short pipe going into another 1 3/4 type glasspack with a 2 inchoutlet
or something with a scavvaging effect. You gain horsepower and keep your
max flow with backpressure this way. If you do run dual exhaust on your
non turbo 4 then this is the way to go. Actually with all exhausts just
the starting pipes grow bigger and the end end bigger =)
Anything else I 4 -got ? oh welps..
Catch ya on the flip side all...
-Koji
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 08:11:01 EST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Stuff.Backlog
> Third off, about Gas Tanks and running "half tanks etc etc".
> ...and then...
> I do race with 1/2 tank although cause my car is balanced 50/60 ratio
as
> with a SW-11 or MR-2's due to the gas tank being in the middle of the
car.
I balance the car with the fuel tank as well. My Circle-Track Celica
performs much better on a "full" tank of gas. Of course, my tank is a 6
gallon boat tank move to the wheel well. I've run the thing completely
out without having a problem with sloshing (very cheap but effective
pickup), but the added weight on the left rear helps hold the car in the
turns!
> Fifth off, anyone Played Ridge Racer ? They have a Virtua Indy in Las
Vegas
> that I wanna play. Ridge Racer is realistic however I have problems
with the
> set up of the car and its shiting gate. Anyway....
Been there, done that. :-) (Allan, this is the one I was telling you
about when I was in SF.) I thought the graphics were excellent, but,
once again, it doesn't "feel" like you're driving a car. I found it
very hard to control, and it tended to drift left of where you were
aiming it (even if the centrifugal force should have pulled you to the
right.) I had the same problem with that "Hard Drivin'" (appropriately
named) game. They were touting themselves at the most realistic driving
simulation game ever, and while they put some feedback into the steering
wheel, it still didn't drive like a car. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure
that you can learn to "drive" these simulations. Its just that I have
this basic concept that anyone who has driven a car for more than 15
years should be able to hit the start button and maneuver around the
track without sliding into a wall or driving off of a bridge.
Now "Virtua Racing" is a little more like it, to me. I prefer the
single seat version. It seems to handle much better than the dual seat,
and it has the air bags that inflate on the sides and back to simulate
g-forces. BTW, the single seat version costs a buck a shot, and it
_can_ be networked with other single seaters to give you the one-on-one
feel. Even if you aren't a video gamer, you should try this one. It's
the closest thing you'll get to racing an Indy car without spending
about a million dollars.
Chris
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 16:17:28 EST
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Stuff.Backlog
> However I did change my gas tank from the 10gallons to
> a 5 gallon fuel cell for every day driving also.
Ah yes, the fuel cell - the only real benefit I can think of that we
got for having helicopters shot out of the sky over Viet Nam. The
bullet proof fuel containers developed for military operations turn
out to be a really dandy solution to the problem of fuel containment
under challenging motorsports conditions. Plus, the open cell foam they
fill them with almost eliminates the slosh problem. Another thing on
my long list of "I'll-get-to-it"s.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 94 16:36:40 EST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Stuff.Backlog
> Ah yes, the fuel cell - the only real benefit I can think of that we
> got for having helicopters shot out of the sky over Viet Nam. The
> bullet proof fuel containers developed for military operations turn
> out to be a really dandy solution to the problem of fuel containment
> under challenging motorsports conditions. Plus, the open cell foam
they
> fill them with almost eliminates the slosh problem. Another thing on
> my long list of "I'll-get-to-it"s.
Uhhhh, are the "bullet-proof" or are they self-sealing (or is that what
you meant?) We have an AH1 Cobra sitting in our lab, and it has a
self-sealing fuel cell or something like that.
Chris
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From: jdunhaa@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 1994 20:47:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Paeco comments?
To: Jeff Burney
Cc: Toyota Mods , mr2-interest@validgh.com
On Thu, 31 Mar 1994, Jeff Burney wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I just received my first Paeco catalog and spent the night dreaming
> of new engine mods for my '86 MR2. Their off-season engine pricing
> ... deleted the rest...
Who is Paeco and where in the he.. do I get one of their catalogues?!?!
John Dunham
jdunhaa@eis.calstate.edu
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From: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 1994 15:17:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 4AGE Mods
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Thank you for all the response regarding the mods of my car. Now I have
make up my mind.
Here is my plan :
1. Change the stock air filter to a K&N one.
2. Change the muffler and remove the catalystic converter.(Does this violate
the law?)
3. Change the springs. (Someone recommend Eibachs - Any opinion?)
Any suggestion is mostly welcomed!!!
Simon ^_^
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 1994 15:15:29 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: 4AGE Mods
>1. Change the stock air filter to a K&N one.
Good move!
>2. Change the muffler and remove the catalystic converter.(Does this violate
>the law?)
This REALLY depends on the laws in your local area. Around here, I would
contact the Department of Motor Vehicles and ask about emissions inspections
and stuff like that (if i didn't know). Around there ....... ??? Maybe
someone else will have an idea.
>3. Change the springs. (Someone recommend Eibachs - Any opinion?)
>Any suggestion is mostly welcomed!!!
I have Suspension Techniques and am happy with them. I have also heard
many good things about Eibachs. (Gee...aren't I helpful!)
>Simon ^_^
Luck,
Fredo
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From: garyh@sco.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Mitcom
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 10:44:47 PDT
Does anyone know what happened to Mitcom (aka Prototype Plastics, Inc)? I
am in need of a replacement front airdam and passenger side skirt.
Thanks,
Gary
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 13:55:45 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New Member!
Welcome now Steven Jackson to our esteemed group. As you can see from
his me/mine/mods below, Steven is pretty serious about autocrossing his
MR2. Any initial ideas from our autocross gurus? Unfortunately, one of
our 4AGx gurus is on haitus right now (Roger) and will hopefully have
some stuff to add when he returns. Once again, welcome!
>>>>>Steven Jackson<<<<<
Name : Steven Jackson
Location : Cambridge, MA
Model : 1988 supercharged MR2, with t-roof
Engine : 4A-GZE
Mods : None
Just bought the car last November. Wanted a fun everyday car to
autocross on
weekends. The MR2 seemed the perfect platform for my needs and wants:
relatively light weight, engine in the right place, Chapman strut rear
suspension, disk brakes all around, wonderful, high-revving four-valve
twin-cam
four. What else could I ask for? Handling, braking and cornering power
are the
most important elements of a car for me, so I plan to make modifications
to
enhance these things. Though I thought I didn't want it when I was
looking for
MR2's last fall, I'm really glad I got the supercharged car. The
supercharger
on top of an already efficient engine, is almost all the engine
performance I
need -- at least for a while. It develops lots of power and torque
through a wi
de engine speed range. I like it. And looking into mods, the 4A-GZE can
produce
prodigious torque and hp with a relatively small number of easy-to-do
changes.
First, though, chassis. Handling performance is my passion. The only
time I
increase engine performance is when it's limiting the handling dynamics
of the
car. I'm planning to run mostly SCCA Solo events, and primarily want to
have
fun, rather than go to the nationals. Chassis mods are straightforward
(adjustable damping shocks, uprated springs on adjustable perches,
adjustable
front and rear sways, urethane bushings here and there, stainless steel
braided
brake lines, some interesting brake pad material, etc.) except for
geometry.
The stock settings aren't desirable. The car understeer plows worse than
almost
any other high-performance front wheel drive car I have driven. But
what's more
disconcerting is the unprogressive way the car transitions from
understeer to
oversteer. This I could use some help sorting out. I've talked with
Toyota
Racing Development in CA, and of course they mentioned that this would
have to
be changed for racing, but they didn't tell me what setting I might want
to try.
I also own two pristine TVR's, a '76 2500M, and an '85 280i, both of
which are
toys, and only see a couple thousand miles/year, if that. The "M" is
currently
autocross ready and will be preparing the 280i, probably throughout this
summer. These cars a much more difficult to sort since they are so rare,
and so
little topnotch development was done on them either by TVR or third
parties,
making good information hard to find. You've got to do everything
yourself,
like calculating spring rates, roll centers to evaluate the stock
geometry,
etc. I also own a '67 Lotus Elan S3 roadster. This car is the opposite
of the
TVR's in that there's a wealth of great technical information about this
very
pretty, very fast, very entertaining, but fragile car.
I am still learning about the MR2, particularly the supercharged car
(this is
the first forced-induction car I've every owned). But tech is definitely
where
I'm at. In fact, I came to the realization that it's time to start
thinking
less as an engineer, and more as a driver. I did well at the Skip Barber
Intro
to Racing a couple of years ago, but this will be the first season I
plan to
race regularly. I'd love to share what I know and learn with others, and
get
assistance from those folks who like to do the same
>>>>><<<<<
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From: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 10:56:22 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: K&N filters
Looks like a lot of you guys/gals have been using
K&N filters for obvious performance improvements.
Appologies if this is a stupid FAQ, but does anyone
know if the improved airflow through the K&N filters
comes at the expense of decreased filtration efficiency?
There are two ways that I can think of to get more
air across a filter membrane for a given pressure drop
assuming all else being unmodified: More surface area or
decrease the filtration efficiency by using a less fine
filter 'mesh'
thanks,
aaron
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 14:02:22 EDT
To: Chris Myer ,
Subject: RE: fuel cells
> Uhhhh, are the "bullet-proof" or are they self-sealing (or is that what
> you meant?) We have an AH1 Cobra sitting in our lab, and it has a
> self-sealing fuel cell or something like that.
Well, the best of them ARE bullet-proof in the same sense as
"bullet-proof vests" are bullet-proof - they will deflect or
stop small-arms fire without sustaining a puncture. For magnum
rounds, high caliber, or rifle fire there are no such guarantees,
but as it turns out my track vehicle is not often exposed to
hostile weapons targeting. The self-sealing feature sounds very
interesting! Please post more info...
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: garyh@sco.com
To: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: 4AGE Mods
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 11:05:02 PDT
>Thank you for all the response regarding the mods of my car. Now I have
>make up my mind.
>Here is my plan :
>1. Change the stock air filter to a K&N one.
Phillip Dang has done this mod to his 87 Celica and mentioned he did notice
a difference in the shifting points on his auto tranny.
>2. Change the muffler and remove the catalystic converter.(Does this violate
>the law?)
In California it does.
>3. Change the springs. (Someone recommend Eibachs - Any opinion?)
>Any suggestion is mostly welcomed!!!
I have Eibachs for my M3 and they are wonderful. Lowers the car about 1" from
stock.
Yesterday, my friend and I were comparing our M3s and he said my car is
*alot* stiffer than his. He push the front end of his car and it gave a
little, then he walked up to my car and push the front end, but it barely
moved so he used both hands to push it, but it still was a bit hard to budge
the car.
Gary
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 14:18:58 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: EGR valves and such
I don't have anything intelligent to add to Derek's dissertation on EGR
valves and such, but I did want to re-emphasize (and possible clarify)
something he pointed out with respect to getting your car to pass
emmissions.
> Derek wrote:
> As for passing emissions without the control stuff, it gets more and
more
> difficult the newer the car is. On the older cars, (pre '74) it
wasn't too
> hard to pass by leaning out the idle mixture, retarding the timing
> (running the risk of overheating), and setting the idle RPM to as high
> as allowable (1000-1100 RPM). Car would drive like crap, but it
passed.
> You can also do this on newer cars which have been modified - but I've
found
> you still have to have all the other stuff in place, because each
system
> adds it's part in reducing emissions, and it really shows up on the CO
and
> HC meters when one of them is missing.
First the clarification. I thing it's advance timing, isn't it? That
is, you want to make it as far before top dead center as possible. At
least that's what I thought, and _advancing_ your timing is what causes
overheating. Retarding it usually allows more unburned gas to pass out
the exhaust, but it runs cooler. Good point though. Everybody note
however: Do this about a block away from the inspection place, and then
replace it as soon as you leave. If you lean-out your air/fuel mixture
(either by jetting on your carb or by other means on EFI) and advance
your timing, you are gonna get hot Hot HOT! If you run hard this way
you could easily overheat and bust a piston. This is bad as in not
good.
Also, I would re-emphasize Derek's point about replacing stuff. If
you've blocked your EGR, unblock it. If you've removed (or are planning
on removing) your caty converter, replace it with a straight pipe so you
put it back in for the inspection. However, I am relatively sure that
if you are running lean with your timing advanced, idle up, and your cat
in place, you will pass pretty much any inspection, even if you've
gutted your air-injection system.
Oh, and as always, I am not recommending that any of you break the
emmissions control laws in your area. Merely pointing out some facts of
mechanic'n.
Chris
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From: bahrr@pictel.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 14:49:48 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: cEGR valves and such
Sorry about the digression, but to help pass emissions the folowing
has helped me ( it would seem that on a number of my cars the cat has
fallen off, or developed large holes though the honeycomb and the EGR has
gotte mysteriously disconnected/blocked....):
o Change the oil - this helps A LOT!!
o tune up including the ignition stuff - wires if > 2years old
pcv valve also important!
o Let the gas tank get REAL low ~3 gals
o Add LOTS of gas line conditioner - really alcohol
o advance the timming up to the point of detonation OR
the idle drops whichever comes first.
o get the engine as HOT as possible - drive for 15-20 min high
rpm
o and as a last resort remove the air filter element - only
for as long as you need to.
OR you could leave it stock!!
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 15:02:12 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: fuel cells
> Well, the best of them ARE bullet-proof in the same sense as
> "bullet-proof vests" are bullet-proof - they will deflect or
> stop small-arms fire without sustaining a puncture. For magnum
> rounds, high caliber, or rifle fire there are no such guarantees,
> but as it turns out my track vehicle is not often exposed to
> hostile weapons targeting. The self-sealing feature sounds very
> interesting! Please post more info...
Yep, I just checked and it says "self sealing". I was tempted to jab it
with a knife and see what happens, but I didn't want to get in trouble.
(Or let any more fumes into the lab than already exist in there! The
Army sends us a helicopter with fuel cells full of JP4 fumes! Can you
say "Boom"?)
Actually, the cell itself is like a square, soft plastic thing.
Probably 125 Gallons or so, 61.5 pounds (a wee tad heavy for most race
cars.) I don't know anything more about it than that. We are wanting
to get the cell out of the aircraft, but its kinda a big deal, however
when we do I'll fully dissect/inspect it and let you know what I find!
Chris
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From: do@etdesg.trw.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 12:17:02 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N filters
>
> Looks like a lot of you guys/gals have been using
> K&N filters for obvious performance improvements.
>
> Appologies if this is a stupid FAQ, but does anyone
> know if the improved airflow through the K&N filters
> comes at the expense of decreased filtration efficiency?
>
> There are two ways that I can think of to get more
> air across a filter membrane for a given pressure drop
> assuming all else being unmodified: More surface area or
> decrease the filtration efficiency by using a less fine
> filter 'mesh'
>
> thanks,
>
> aaron
>
I switch to a K&N filter in my 4WD truck because they can be cleanned.
I was using the FRAM filter and they got clogged up w/ dirt real
quick. I had to replace the FRAM filter after everytime I took my truck
out to play in the dirt otherwise the truck would run like *CRAP* 'cause
the filter wasn't flowing any air. I also noticed some dirt around the air
cleaner base meaning the filter wasn't doing it's job. Since I switched to
K&N, the truck has been in the dirt a few times. I haven't had to clean
the K&N yet since the truck runs fine and I've also noticed less dirt
around the air cleaner base. Remember, the dirt and dust the K&N filter
sees off-road is much finer than the dirt and dust on a paved road. So
I gotta say the K&N is doing its job much better than the FRAM filter.
God, this sounds like an info-mercial!
Louis
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From: danapple@vicor.com
To: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com (Aaron Lung)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N filters
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 94 12:37:33 -0700
> lung@San-Jose.ate.slb.com (Aaron Lung) writes:
> Appologies if this is a stupid FAQ, but does anyone
> know if the improved airflow through the K&N filters
> comes at the expense of decreased filtration efficiency?
According to the K&N ads, the oil filtration method filters out more
smaller particles than the paper filters.
> There are two ways that I can think of to get more
> air across a filter membrane for a given pressure drop
> assuming all else being unmodified: More surface area or
> decrease the filtration efficiency by using a less fine
> filter 'mesh'
What if you use more surface area but a finer mesh? I presume that's
what an oil filter accomplishes.
> thanks,
> aaron
Dan.
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From: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 12:44:15 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N filters
Louis sez:
} I had to replace the FRAM filter after everytime I took my truck
}out to play in the dirt otherwise the truck would run like *CRAP* 'cause
}the filter wasn't flowing any air. I also noticed some dirt around the air
}cleaner base meaning the filter wasn't doing it's job. Since I switched to
}K&N, the truck has been in the dirt a few times. I haven't had to clean
}the K&N yet since the truck runs fine and I've also noticed less dirt
}around the air cleaner base. Remember, the dirt and dust the K&N filter
}sees off-road is much finer than the dirt and dust on a paved road. So
}I gotta say the K&N is doing its job much better than the FRAM filter.
Ah, but this is precisely what the filter is supposed to do! Right?
If it isn't gettin plugged with dirt, the dirt must going somewhere else!
Like into the intake :-( If the K&N is really filtering better than
the FRAM's, I'd think you'd *have* to clean it *more* often unless it
has more surface area to spread the dirt.
Phillip aka 'celica boy' :-) sed that one doesn't need to clean a K&N
for over 40Kmiles(?) I have to replace my FRAM's every 10K or so.
They get pretty dirty from street driving in just a few months,
but this is in San Jose, where you can see the air yer breathing (yucks)
Opinions?
aaron
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From: do@etdesg.trw.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 13:39:07 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N filters
>
> Louis sez:
> } I had to replace the FRAM filter after everytime I took my truck
> }out to play in the dirt otherwise the truck would run like *CRAP* 'cause
> }the filter wasn't flowing any air. I also noticed some dirt around the air
> }cleaner base meaning the filter wasn't doing it's job. Since I switched to
> }K&N, the truck has been in the dirt a few times. I haven't had to clean
> }the K&N yet since the truck runs fine and I've also noticed less dirt
> }around the air cleaner base. Remember, the dirt and dust the K&N filter
> }sees off-road is much finer than the dirt and dust on a paved road. So
> }I gotta say the K&N is doing its job much better than the FRAM filter.
>
> Ah, but this is precisely what the filter is supposed to do! Right?
> If it isn't gettin plugged with dirt, the dirt must going somewhere else!
> Like into the intake :-( If the K&N is really filtering better than
> the FRAM's, I'd think you'd *have* to clean it *more* often unless it
> has more surface area to spread the dirt.
>
> Phillip aka 'celica boy' :-) sed that one doesn't need to clean a K&N
> for over 40Kmiles(?) I have to replace my FRAM's every 10K or so.
> They get pretty dirty from street driving in just a few months,
> but this is in San Jose, where you can see the air yer breathing (yucks)
>
> Opinions?
>
> aaron
>
Aaron,
The fact that I see **LESS** dirt/dust around the air cleaner housing w/ the
K&N filter means that it is filtering better than the FRAM. The fact that I
don't have to clean it after every off-road run means it flows better than
the FRAM. I am not familiar w/ the technical aspects of the K&N design making
it flow better and trap dirt better than the ordinary paper filters. I only
rely on the facts I observed when using it. But of course, I've been wrong
before (:-)
Louis
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From: derek_deeter@rainbow.mentorg.com
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 15:53:42 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: EGR valves and such
>First the clarification. I thing it's advance timing, isn't it? That
>is, you want to make it as far before top dead center as possible. At
>least that's what I thought, and _advancing_ your timing is what causes
>overheating. Retarding it usually allows more unburned gas to pass out
>the exhaust, but it runs cooler.
This brings up an interesting point. Now, I know that on older cars,
you _do_ have to retard the timing (where the mixture ignites after TDC)
- you want that mixture just about burning on the way out the exhaust
to minimize those unburnt hydrocarbons. Note that this is at idle only.
And the idle turned high so as to get the best possible vaporization of
mixture.
If you ever look at a table of engine specifications over the years from
70-74, you'll see that initial timing specs became more and more retarded
as the years progressed, with some cars even spec'd ATDC! My F*rd
engine had a special distributor retard for idle only - it retarded the
timing about 5 degrees (to about TDC), however, once you got
going, the retard went away.
Now, after '75, with the advent of EGR, Air injection, catalytics, etc.,
it may be better to advance timing so as to get enough unburnt hydrocarbons
to keep that catalytic lit up and converting those exhaust gases. What
vintage were the cars that needed advanced timing?
Chris is right about the overheating aspect, however I seem to vaguely
remember that you can also overheat when you retard timing and
at the same time also lean out the mixture. That's why some
smog systems have a temperature vacuum switch, so that when
idling for extended periods, and the engine starts to get too hot,
the switch cuts off vacuum timing retard until the engine cools down.
I do agree that if you retard timing with no change in mixture, the
engine will run cooler and dirtier.
On another note, I modified my '79 D*dge RV, which has no catalytics, with
manifold, carb, cam and headers, removed the air injection system, and
there was no way it would pass, even with the carb leaned out; however
with the stock exhaust and air injection back on, plus retarded timing,
it passed fine. Kinda makes one wonder if that air injection really burns
unspent fuel, or dilutes the exhaust with more air, or possibly
both? At least it really seems to help on an 8 cylinder.
In the end, I think it's a lot easier to pass a 4 cylinder than an 8, as
I've really never had any problems passing any of my 4 cylinder cars, i.e.,
with the smog stuff on. Another reason to make your mods non-permanent
is that you may want to sell the car someday, and some states make smog
testing mandatory upon sale of the car. It's always best to call up
your local smog test place to find out beforehand to find out what
they expect.
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 1994 22:49:02 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: K&N filters
>Looks like a lot of you guys/gals have been using
>K&N filters for obvious performance improvements.
You betcha!
>Appologies if this is a stupid FAQ, but does anyone
>know if the improved airflow through the K&N filters
>comes at the expense of decreased filtration efficiency?
There is no such thing as a stupid FAQ on this list!
From what I have seen, people seem to be able to argue
this both ways. Personally, I am running a K&N and have
no concerns about filtration. Given a choice between the
K&N and a PowerFlo or other foam-type filter, the K&N wins
hands down in my books. The way I figure it is that a DRY
K&N will NOT filter as well as a paper filter. An oil-
impregnated K&N (as they all are) I feel will make up for
the "decrease" in filtering ability by using the oil to
trap particles (as someone else mentioned). I do remember
seeing somewhere some STRONG advice that stated if you
offroad alot where the dust is finer it will tend to "dry"
the oil much faster and you should re-oil periodically even
if you don't clean the filter. This would support the argument
that the dry filter is not a good filter and it NEEDS the
oil to filter properly.
>aaron
I guess the bottom line from me is: If you are not convinced,
stick to what you are comfortable with (maybe go to a larger
paper filter). A friend of mine always autocrossed his
RX7 TurboII with NO air filter at all. Then he put on a
power-flo and was quite happy and felt comfy-safe. You decide!
Regards,
Fredo
P.S. Did Roger ask anyone to keep TM messages for him in his
absence?
P.P.S. Should I drop the extra cash to put my car on the road for
April or wait 'till May? (This is Winnipeg.....It snowed on
the weekend!)
(Gee... I don't sound like I'm asking someone to twist my
rubber arm, am I?????)
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 94 16:36:18 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N filters
> There is no such thing as a stupid FAQ on this list!
Gosh Fred, I'm not sure how to take that! :-)
>Long discussion of paper vs. K&N deleted...
For me, I think the advantage of the K&N is that you can cheaply clean
it every week or two, as opposed to replacing a paper filter. That is
why I run an Oberg remote oil filter. I can pop that screen out at
will, jet it down with some carb cleaner, scrub it clean with some
detergent, and pop it back in. Completely clean filter at no $$
output. Someone said something about running a K&N for 40,000 miles.
(*Cringe!*)
> P.S. Did Roger ask anyone to keep TM messages for him in his
> absence?
We (Tom, actually) archive all the messages anyhow. Hopefully Roger
will return again soon, and the archived messages will be there for
him.
> P.P.S. Should I drop the extra cash to put my car on the road
> for
> April or wait 'till May? (This is Winnipeg.....It snowed on
> the weekend!)
> (Gee... I don't sound like I'm asking someone to twist my
> rubber arm, am I?????)
Fred, this is Florida...It snowed here just after the Mesozoic/Jurrasic
period I think. Catch the clue. Move where you can drive like an idiot
year 'round! (Seems like most people here do, anyhow!)
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 94 16:59:55 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New Member
Oops! kinda late introducing this new member, kinda slipped between the
cracks. Things are kinda busy for me now, which is infinitly better
than the alternative! (Sorry John....)
>>>>>John Daker<<<<<
Name : John R. Daker
Location : Lancaster, CA (SoCal)
Model : 1984 Celica GT-S
Engine : 22-RE
Mods : K&N, Dobi exhaust
email : jrd@po.cwru.edu
Red Hatchback with 142,000+ miles is very good condition. Downsized to
BFG
VR's, 215/60-14. I'm mostly just interested in hearing what this list
has
to say. I do auto-x it occasionally, and if I keep it I'd like to
improve
the handling. My only real disappointment with the car is the lack of
power.
>>>>><<<<<
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From: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 1994 20:07:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 4AGE mods (Phone no. and Parts no. need)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Does anybody have the phone no. of Eibachs (spring) and Walker(muffler)?
Also I need the part no. of the K&N air filter(cylindrical,open one end
and close the other).
Thanks,
Simon
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 21:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
To: The Toyota Mods Mailing List
With all the talk about K&Ns and more power, I decided take out my K&N
and instead use my Toyota paper filter. I've had the paper filter from
December 91 to December 93. I put the K&N in December 93. The paper
filter isn't very dirty; a good cleaning with compressed air and it will
look almost new. The K&N filter looks clean.
Here's the scoop on today:
The engine shifted 500 rpms earlier on a particular stretch of slightly
inclined road. I felt that there was less torque. On a freeway on-ramp,
steep incline, I put the pedal to the carpet and noticed that the tach
did not exceed 4100 rpms; with the K&N, I was able to achieve 4600 rpms.
Redline is at 6000 rpms.
Off the topic, but while we are on the subject of performance... for the
first time, I installed a Toyota oil filter along with Castrol GTX 10W30
early last week and have noticed that I was able to start that car, on
two instances, 0.5 second faster than usual. The car still takes the same
amount of time to start when the engine is entirely cold. I previously
used Fram oil filters with Penzoil 10W40. I always change oil at approx.
2700 miles or 3 months.
These results are by no means scientific (YMMV), but just observations.
More observations to come...
87 Celica ST, automatic, 3S-FE engine, 76K miles
only mods are Bosch platinum spark plugs and K&N air filter
Later,
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Phillip Dang pdang@ctp.org San Francisco, California
aka Celica-boy #73
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 21:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
To: Chris Myer
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
On Tue, 5 Apr 1994, Chris typed:
[snip, snip]
> detergent, and pop it back in. Completely clean filter at no $$
> output. Someone said something about running a K&N for 40,000 miles.
> (*Cringe!*)
No kidding, Chris. Under performance hints, "Service every 50-100,000
miles on street driven applications. Service more often in offroad or
heavy dust conditions or when air filter reaches 18" of restrictions.
Let [sic]. Let dirt "build-up" work for you; it will not hurt
the performance and actually helps filter the air." For the off-roader
on this list, "When used in heavy dust conditions -- offroad
racing/riding, agriculture, earth moving, or industrial -- [begin bold type]
the filter element must have an additional application of K&N filter oil
applied to it before installation.
I don't know what 18" (18 inches) of restriction means, but the dirt
build up should answer Aaron's question, does less dirt in K&N mean
less filtration?
And if that wasn't enough... K&N Engineering
P.O. Box 1329
Riverside, CA 92502
(909)684-9762
Bye,
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Phillip Dang pdang@ctp.org San Francisco, California
aka Celica-boy #73
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 00:52:41 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: K&N filters
>> There is no such thing as a stupid FAQ on this list!
>
>Gosh Fred, I'm not sure how to take that! :-)
What I meant was: All questions asked on this list, even if they
are not new questions, seem to lead to some fresh, uncovered,
discussions filled with useful opinions/information. I have
yet to see a list as good as this one anywhere else! (IMHO)
(except for my random babblings, of course!)
>
>>Long discussion of paper vs. K&N deleted...
Are you calling me long-winded or what ?!?!?!?
>
>For me, I think the advantage of the K&N is that you can cheaply clean
>it every week or two, as opposed to replacing a paper filter. That is
>why I run an Oberg remote oil filter. I can pop that screen out at
>will, jet it down with some carb cleaner, scrub it clean with some
>detergent, and pop it back in. Completely clean filter at no $$
>output. Someone said something about running a K&N for 40,000 miles.
>(*Cringe!*)
I agree with the (*Cringe!*)! How "good" is this screen filter compared
to a throw-away paper oil filter? Would you recommend this for a person
who is time-limited and would probably only clean this every 5000km?
>> P.P.S. Should I drop the extra cash to put my car on the road
>> for
>> April or wait 'till May? (This is Winnipeg.....It snowed on
>> the weekend!)
>> (Gee... I don't sound like I'm asking someone to twist my
>> rubber arm, am I?????)
>
>Fred, this is Florida...It snowed here just after the Mesozoic/Jurrasic
>period I think. Catch the clue. Move where you can drive like an idiot
>year 'round! (Seems like most people here do, anyhow!)
>Chris
#1: Who says I don't?
#2: Is that an invitation to move in? Hey modders: anybody else
want to get in on this? Maybe we could use your place as a halfway house
for addicts who just want a LITTLE bit more power/handling (honest!).
(Really, I'm only going to do the exhaust and then that's it. No more.)
Fredo
Sorry for the excessively fat musicians. (waste of bandwidth!)
Damn...they got LIDAR up here now. Anybody want to sell me a Valentine-1
radar/lidar detector?
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 08:39:42 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Another (late) new member
Well, your friendly Toyota Mods administrator has once again dropped the
ball and am sending out a new member about 2 weeks late. (Sorry Kevin)
Thank goodness for Tom Julien who basically does all my accounting and
lets me know when I've screwed up. Anyway, welcome Kevin to our group.
>>>>>Kevin Bento<<<<<
Name: Kevin M Bento
Location: live in New Paltz, NY work at IBM Mt. Pleasant, NY
Model: 1988 Supra Turbo, sport suspension, mostly stock (for now)
Engine: 7M-GTE (turbo, 24-valve, dual-cam, V6)
Mods: Nothing yet (I just got it)
E-Mail: KBENTO@VNET.IBM.COM
I have some experience in 'automotive hacking', you might say. I'm
interested in the automotive electrical systems, more specifically,
the computers that control things in the engine. Over the next couple
of years I'll be experimenting on a 1988 Supra Turbo linked to a
portable computer to analyze the default programs kept inside the
EPROM chip and possibly create my own custom chip for the computer.
My interests are wide. I've done engine work in the past. I've
rebuilt a VW GTI engine and realized significant increases in power
through headers, test-pipes, better cams, recurved distributer, and
rewiring the computer. I'm only now just getting into Toyotas. I
don't think I'll be rebuilding the engine anytime soon (hopefully)
but I will be doing performance upgrades through the computer.
Kevin Bento
Programmer, IBM Corporation
KBENTO@VNET.IBM.COM
>>>>><<<<<
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 06:11:35 -0700
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Radar List (Who Has What: Car and Driver)
Cc: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Who Has What
Note: X- and K-band radar are not listed becasue all states and provinces use
one or both. In the columns under Ka, laser, and photo surveillance, a Y means
yes, the method is used; an N means it is not used and "test" means it's being
tried. Our sources include RADAR, the detector industry's lobbying
organization, and Gray Electronics, Inc., maker of the Uniden BearTracker
scanner. Gray Electronics publishes the National Highway Patrol Reference
Guide (call 800-722-6701 for the soo-to-be-published third edition), which also
identifies the makes of cars used by state patrols, and how many airplanes,
helicopters, and other speed-enforcementtools the state rely on. A membership
in RADAE is $29 and includes periodic updates to this chart, plus a 50-page
description of speed-measuring devices and a monthly newsletter (513/667-5472).
Our sources in Canada include the legendary Mounties-the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police
STATES Ka Laser Photo
======================================
Alabama Y* Y* N
Alaska Y Y N
Arizona Y Y Y*
Arkansas Y test* Y
California Y Y* Y*
Colorado Y Y Y
Connecticut N Y N
District of Y Y Y**
Columbia
Delaware Y Y N
Florida Y Y* N
Georgia Y Y Y
Hawaii N Y* N
Idaho Y N N
Illinois Y Y Y
Indiana Y Y N
Iowa Y N N
Kansas Y* test N
Kentucky Y N N
Louisiana N Y N
Maine Y Y N
Maryland N Y N
Massachusetts Y Y* N
Michigan N Y N
Minnesota Y* Y N
Mississippi N Y N
Missouri Y Y N
Montana N N N
Nebraska N Y N
Nevada N Y N
New Hampshire N Y N
New Jersey N Y Y
New Mexico N Y N
New York Y Y N
North Carolina N N N
North Dakota Y N N
Ohio Y Y N
Oklahoma Y Y N
Oregon N Y N
Pennsylvania Y Y Y
Rhode Island Y Y N
South Carolina N Y* N
South Dakota Y N N
Tennessee Y Y N
Texas Y Y N
Utah Y Y* Y*
Vermont N Y N
Virginia+ N Y N
Washington N Y N
West Virginia Y Y* N
Wisconsin N Y Y
Wyoming Y Y N
PROVINCES Ka Laser Photo
======================================
Alberta N Y Y*
British N Y N
Columbia
Manitoba + N Y N
New N Y N
Brunswick+++
Newfoundland+ N N N
Northwest N N N
Territories++
Nova Scotia N N N
Ontario+ Y N Y
Prince Edward N N N
Island+
Quebec+ N test N
Saskatchewan N N N
Yukon N N N
Territory++
* Not statewide; local municipalities only
** Coming this summer
+ Radar detectors illegal; VG-2 in use
++ Radar detectors illegal; no VG-2 in use
+++ Radar detectors to be illegal soon; VG-2 use expected
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 09:20:49 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Oberg Oil Filters (was K&N filters)
> I agree with the (*Cringe!*)! How "good" is this screen filter
compared
> to a throw-away paper oil filter? Would you recommend this for a
person
> who is time-limited and would probably only clean this every 5000km?
Nope. There are basically three benefits of the Oberg remote:
1.) You can put it where it is easy to get to.
2.) You can clean it frequently and cheaply.
3.) It tells you when it is dirty.
If your filter is already easy to get to, if you won't clean it more
frequently than you change your oil, and if you change your oil
frequently enough that your filter won't get clogged to the "free-flow"
point, you certainly should save your $125 or so. However, if you run
synthetic oil, you should really get one of these so you can take
advantage of the long oil life. I.E., you can leave the oil in for,
say, 8-10K miles, but clean the filter every 1K. Cool.
>
> #2: Is that an invitation to move in? Hey modders: anybody else
> want to get in on this? Maybe we could use your place as a halfway
house
> for addicts who just want a LITTLE bit more power/handling (honest!).
> (Really, I'm only going to do the exhaust and then that's it. No
more.)
You've all been invited before. BTW, I have a race car that is sitting
idle, and a race track within an hour's drive with a race every Friday
night. Whatcha waitin on?
>
> Fredo
>
> Sorry for the excessively fat musicians. (waste of bandwidth!)
>
> Damn...they got LIDAR up here now. Anybody want to sell me a
Valentine-1
> radar/lidar detector?
My motto is, when you can detect LIDAR, its too late. Don't waste your
money!
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From: fergusos@jeff-lab.queensu.ca
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 09:48:38 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: oh no... more filter stuff
I saved the excellent advice for trashing the stock Toyota airbox and
associated plumbing and replacing it with a simple K&N cylindrical
filter with adapter. However, there isn't a whole lot of room around my
airflow meter (RWD Corolla GTS). Was there a fair bit of room around
the airflow meter in the FWD Corolla that was being discussed, or am
I just underestimating the potential of creative metalwork. The
rectangular intake hole for the meter is within about 3" of the fender and
4" of the supporting sheetmetal for the headlight assembly. Is this enough
room to work with?
Anyone with a RWD Corolla (84-87) want to go outside, look at it, and offer
me some suggestions?
I was reading the advice in the TRD catalog about simple fixes. Plugging
the EGR seems straightforward enough. Are the changes to the mixture
setting via the little toothed wheel in the airflow meter worthwhile, or
would I really notice?
Stephen
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 07:31:45 -0700
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer),
Subject: Re: Lidar
>>Fredo:
> > Damn...they got LIDAR up here now. Anybody want to sell me a
> > Valentine-1 radar/lidar detector?
>>Chris:
> My motto is, when you can detect LIDAR, its too late. Don't waste your
> money!
It's never too late... The exact same statment was used on instant-on
Radars too. The way how LIDAR detectors works permits you to catch it's stray
signals. Yes, stray signals. Here is a little quantum physics coming at ya.
Laser is light... Light has both the properties of a particle and a wave. So
therefore, stray signals are possible just by it's wave property.
This is just clearly by my observation of the LIDAR detector itself
(construction, etc...). The LIDAR detector itself has a convex lens. By that
observation alone a convex is used to gather light. *bing* idea!!!
Even though the laser is a tightly focused beam, it is a "pulsed" beam
(by definition: Light Amplification by Stimulation of Emission of Radiation)
and therefore has a specific frequency. The type circuitry the Detector needs
is something that could detemine a pulsed or oscillating signal rather than to
weed out a specific frequency/band (I think that is why the cost is less for a
regular radar that a LIDAR detector). But that is what I think how a LIDAR
detector works... Please correct me or elaborate if there is more information
that could be addressed.
So if my theory is true... the same tactics I have been practicing
*haha* for instant on radar while I speed should prove effective. When
speeding, speed in a group... let a scapegoat take the lead to draw the fire...
then pick up the stray signals and drop back quickly. Similar tactics are used
in the Military to draw out hidden enemies so the second wave could clean up
after *hahaha*. Yes, the LIDAR leaves you less room to get away... the LIDAR
detectors will still let you catch stray signals like it's predaccessors.
Latas,
Botoboy
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From: do@etdesg.trw.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 08:30:56 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
>
> With all the talk about K&Ns and more power, I decided take out my K&N
> and instead use my Toyota paper filter. I've had the paper filter from
> December 91 to December 93. I put the K&N in December 93. The paper
> filter isn't very dirty; a good cleaning with compressed air and it will
> look almost new. The K&N filter looks clean.
>
> Here's the scoop on today:
> The engine shifted 500 rpms earlier on a particular stretch of slightly
> inclined road. I felt that there was less torque. On a freeway on-ramp,
> steep incline, I put the pedal to the carpet and noticed that the tach
> did not exceed 4100 rpms; with the K&N, I was able to achieve 4600 rpms.
> Redline is at 6000 rpms.
>
> Off the topic, but while we are on the subject of performance... for the
> first time, I installed a Toyota oil filter along with Castrol GTX 10W30
> early last week and have noticed that I was able to start that car, on
> two instances, 0.5 second faster than usual. The car still takes the same
> amount of time to start when the engine is entirely cold. I previously
> used Fram oil filters with Penzoil 10W40. I always change oil at approx.
> 2700 miles or 3 months.
>
> These results are by no means scientific (YMMV), but just observations.
> More observations to come...
>
> 87 Celica ST, automatic, 3S-FE engine, 76K miles
> only mods are Bosch platinum spark plugs and K&N air filter
>
> Later,
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Phillip Dang pdang@ctp.org San Francisco, California
> aka Celica-boy #73
>
About the easier starting of your car... Don't think it's the oil and oil
filter you've installed. It's likely the gas they are selling now. They've
stop oxygenating the gas in CA 'till winter. Have you checked the milage
lately? I'll bet you are now getting a few more miles per gallon than
previously.
And about cleaning K&N every 50K, I would not wait that long. Play it by ear
and clean it if you see dirt packed up in the filter. I've used K&N in various
cars and have always clean them at least once a year.
BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a loud sucking
sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
Louis
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 08:59:43 -0700
To: do@etdesg.trw.com (Louis Do), toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
> BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a loud sucking
> sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
No flames... Wait til you hear from a big-block V8 with a big cam
*droool*.
Latas,
Botoboy
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From: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 09:57:34 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Lidar
Hey, does anyone know what the number of Valantine-1's
is to get a quantity discount?
Hmmm...if we can get enough of us interested in purchasing
enough to get the price break... It was 6 when the Passports
were hot several years ago.
BTW, I'm seriously interested in one, but not at $400!!
aaron
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From: fergusos@jeff-lab.queensu.ca
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 12:58:27 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
> BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a loud sucking
^^^^^^^^^^^^
> sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
^^^^^
> Louis
Is that what Ross Perot was talking about?
Stephen
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 13:06:18 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
> > BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a
loud
^^^^
> >sucking sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
> > Louis
>
> Is that what Ross Perot was talking about?
>
> Stephen
>
Only on the Mexican-made K&N filters!
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 13:10:11 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
> BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a loud
sucking
> sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
>
> Louis
>
I remember hearing that sound from the intake on my Suzuki GSX-R 750.
Nothing like hearing that "loud sucking sound" coming from between your
legs when you twist the throttle! Especially at 150 mph!
Chris
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From: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 10:17:06 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
}From pdang@eis.calstate.edu Tue Apr 5 21:54:27 1994
Phillip sez that K&N sed:
}Let [sic]. Let dirt "build-up" work for you; it will not hurt
}the performance and actually helps filter the air."
[...]
}I don't know what 18" (18 inches) of restriction means, but the dirt
}build up should answer Aaron's question, does less dirt in K&N mean
}less filtration?
Ah-ha! Just as I thought! That's cauz the build-up of dirt
makes it tougher for bigger chunks of dirt that would otherwise pass!
The same theory holds true for furnace filters for the house. The more
plugged up it is, the less gunk passes through, but at the expense
of less airflow and bigger pressure difference.
I assume K&N designed their filters such that even with a dirty
element, the overall performance is still *much* better than the factory
equivalent.
Phillip also sez:
} The paper
}> filter isn't very dirty; a good cleaning with compressed air and it will
}> look almost new. The K&N filter looks clean.
Is it naive to assume that if I blow out my paper filter regularly
that I can technically use it indefinitely (well, *much* longer
than otherwise)? Them paper filters get real expensive real quick!
Louis sez:
}About the easier starting of your car... Don't think it's the oil and oil
}filter you've installed. It's likely the gas they are selling now. They've
}stop oxygenating the gas in CA 'till winter.
We supposedly stopped getting oxy-gas as of Feb 1. My mileage has
since gotten better by a tad. I guess the oxy stuff they've been
selling this year is much better than last year. My mileage took
a 10-15% hit last time.
aaron
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 13:24:43 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Recent problems.
Sorry about all of the recent problems I've been having getting new
members onto the list. Tom and I have a system worked out for checking
behind each other, unfortunately it is based on _each_ of us getting all
of the mail. The problem is, it seems that each of us is missing some
mail. I know, it seems unbelievable, but sometimes when mail is sent to
my machine at toyota-mods or toyota-mods-request, it goes out to
everybody but cmyer. Strange.
Anyhow, Tom didn't get the introduction I did for Kevin Bento this am.
If you got it, (and you're seeing this message within a couple of hours
of 1:30 EST) Please send me a message with subject "I got it - KBento"
(I won't read the body that way.) If you _didn't_ get it, send "I
missed it - KBento".
Hopefully I'll be able to figure out what is going on here soon. Sorry
about this administrivia.
Chris
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From: do@etdesg.trw.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 10:34:25 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
> > BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a loud sucking
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
> ^^^^^
>
> > Louis
>
> Is that what Ross Perot was talking about?
>
> Stephen
>
Don't know if Ross is into *loud sucking sound* from the intake like me.
I think he means he hears *loud sucking sounds* when around government
officials. Don't ask me why.
Louis
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From: do@etdesg.trw.com
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 10:43:14 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters & funny loud sounds
> > BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a loud
> sucking
> > sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
> >
> > Louis
> >
>
> I remember hearing that sound from the intake on my Suzuki GSX-R 750.
> Nothing like hearing that "loud sucking sound" coming from between your
> legs when you twist the throttle! Especially at 150 mph!
>
> Chris
>
**"loud sucking sound" coming from between your legs ....** Hey watch
what you write. It can be s*xual harrassment in some places.
Louis (couldn't resist) Do
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 11:09:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
To: Louis Do
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Louis Do wrote:
[my long message deleted]
> About the easier starting of your car... Don't think it's the oil and oil
> filter you've installed. It's likely the gas they are selling now. They've
> stop oxygenating the gas in CA 'till winter. Have you checked the milage
> lately? I'll bet you are now getting a few more miles per gallon than
> previously.
I suppose this is true. I really don't know. I haven't checked the
mileage latey, but you're probably correct in saying that my mileage went
up. I know that before I switched over to Toyota and Castrol, I didn't
notice anything unusual when the local gas station that I use switched to
oxygenated gasoline. Only now have I noticed that the car starts easier.
> And about cleaning K&N every 50K, I would not wait that long. Play it by ear
> and clean it if you see dirt packed up in the filter. I've used K&N in various
Yeah, I'll check periodically and service when necessary. I also want to
add that cleaning the air filter beats throwing it away and buying a new one.
> BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a loud sucking
> sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
Cheap plug for K&N: in this month's issue of Roundel, BM* magazine, a
company called AJ-USA, located in San Diego, is selling K&Ns for BM*
for 40% of list. Assuming that they carry K&Ns for Toys, there's a deal
to be had. (800) 877-1911 or (619) 297-9070
Bye,
Celica-boy #73
pdang@ctp.org
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From: lantera@csos.orst.edu
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 13:08:29 -0700
To: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com, cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com,
Subject: Re: Lidar
Car and Driver just got through doing an extensive test of combined Radar/Laser
detectors in their April issue. Among the interesting tidbits of this article
is a chart that lists for the USA and Canada what forms of radar/lidar are used
in what state/province. It was interesting to note how many did not use Ka
band radar thus making a 3 band detector unnecessary. In an earlier issue
they showed some ways to reduce the distance at which a Lidar gun has any
accuracy, thus making a Lidar detector useful. If you can get rid of all
reflective surfaces on the front of your car (ie. license plates, chrome, etc)
there is a significant decrease in the distance that the Lidar gun can get a
reading.
In a similar note I've heard it mentioned in C&D that a IR filter over a
driving light (tuned to the right frequency of course) could effectvely blind
a Lidar gun, and be completely legal. Another technique I heard on
rec.motorcycles was to use IR LED's pulsing out the right frequency. I figgure
about 10 of them in the right places could do the same thing, and also be
legal. Not that anybody here would ever deliberately break a traffic law. :)
Woodsprite
*******************************************************************************
** * 1983 Celica ST * Joe Woodsprite ***
** Looking for Julie, * * Unsafe at any speed ***
** Whereever I go. * I don't drive * ***
** --- * fast. * lantera@kira.csos.orst.edu ***
** I'll do what it * I fly low. * lanteran@xanth.cs.orst.edu ***
** takes to find her. * * ***
** * 72 Honda CB350 * ***
*******************************************************************************
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 20:09:29 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: Another (late) new member
>>>>>>Kevin Bento<<<<<
>I have some experience in 'automotive hacking', you might say. I'm
>interested in the automotive electrical systems, more specifically,
>the computers that control things in the engine. Over the next couple
>of years I'll be experimenting on a 1988 Supra Turbo linked to a
>portable computer to analyze the default programs kept inside the
>EPROM chip and possibly create my own custom chip for the computer.
Hey! Does this mean you will be able to reprogram the computer for
MY car???? Seeing as how nobody makes a "superchip" for my application,
this would be just ducky!
Fredo
88 Corolla GTS (4AGE - CSP)
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 20:12:12 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: Oberg Oil Filters (was K&N filters)
Ok, I'll consider it! Where can I get an Oberg applications
book/catalog? Anybody want to fax me the page(s) for an
88 Corolla GTS, 4AGE,FWD????????
Thanks,
Fredo
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 20:25:12 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: oh no... more (air) filter stuff
>filter with adapter. However, there isn't a whole lot of room around my
>airflow meter (RWD Corolla GTS). Was there a fair bit of room around
>the airflow meter in the FWD Corolla that was being discussed, or am
>I just underestimating the potential of creative metalwork. The
>rectangular intake hole for the meter is within about 3" of the fender and
>4" of the supporting sheetmetal for the headlight assembly. Is this enough
>room to work with?
Hmmmm.....sounds kinda tight. I do remember that on my FWD 'Rolla there didn't
seem to be any way to do this either. I was suprised when I picked it up!
It does sound like you have even less room though. What about an even wackier
but better-performing change like deleting the somewhat lengthy rubber tube which
connects the "intake manifold" (aluminum assembly) to the airflow meter?
Ie: intake assemly -- short tube -- AFM -- K&N ?
This would be an even better change as it would decrease the length of tubing
through which the air would have to travel. Unfortunately I don't have a
RWD 'Rolla to look at so this may be total BS. Any replies from others who
have this vehicle?
>I was reading the advice in the TRD catalog about simple fixes. Plugging
>the EGR seems straightforward enough. Are the changes to the mixture
>setting via the little toothed wheel in the airflow meter worthwhile, or
>would I really notice?
I really didn't notice any difference except that if you overdo it, your
off-the-line performance will really suck. I do recall that this change is
spelled out (RECOMMENDED?) in the setup instructions that came with my
HKS cams. Perhaps a "better" way might be to raise the fuel pressure?
Might this cause the computer to bring the mixture back to normal by
using the oxygen sensor while cruising yet still allow more fuel into
the engine when you tromp on the accelerator?
My theory is this:
When driving normally, the computer uses the oxygen sensor to adjust the
fuel mixture to an "optimum" cruising value (most efficient).
When you tromp on it, the computer ignores the oxy sensor and sets the
time the injectors are open based on a fixed "look-up table" in its
memory.
Can anyone verify this? Or suggest alternate ways the oxy sensor is used.
I tried disconnecting mine last year and didn't notice a difference
in my "spirited" driving performance. Do you have to be cruising at
a fixed speed for a long period or is my oxy sensor just dead? I do
have about 100,000km and the new service books suggest that the oxy
sensor should be replaced at about 100,000km. Too bad this damn thing
is worth about $400!!! It's the 4-wire kind.
>Stephen
Regards,
Fredo
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 20:31:21 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: Lidar
>accuracy, thus making a Lidar detector useful. If you can get rid of all
>reflective surfaces on the front of your car (ie. license plates, chrome, etc)
>there is a significant decrease in the distance that the Lidar gun can get a
>reading.
Sure, make me wish I hadn't bought a WHITE car!!!
>In a similar note I've heard it mentioned in C&D that a IR filter over a
>driving light (tuned to the right frequency of course) could effectvely blind
>a Lidar gun, and be completely legal. Another technique I heard on
Interesting. I have a source for IR glass filters designed to be mounted over
halogen floodlamps (12v). Too bad these things are so darn expensive (~$120US
for a 5" circle). You could just mount a bunch on the front of your car and
use it for jamming and heating burgers!
>rec.motorcycles was to use IR LED's pulsing out the right frequency. I figgure
>about 10 of them in the right places could do the same thing, and also be
>legal. Not that anybody here would ever deliberately break a traffic law. :)
Would 10 of them be powerful enough? I guess maybe the pulsing thing helps.
I have the LED's if you have the LIDAR gun to try them on! (kinda expensive
testing otherwise!)
>Woodsprite
Sorry for starting a not-so-appropriate thread here!
Fredo
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 20:33:42 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: 4AGE mods (Phone no. and Parts no. need)
>Also I need the part no. of the K&N air filter(cylindrical,open one end
>and close the other).
>Thanks,
>Simon
I guess this is probably directed at me!
Conveniently, I will be getting the oil changed on my truck by my
favorite mechanic (who installed the K&N for me) so, assuming that
my alzheimer's doesn't strike again I will remember to ask him for
the part number (unless anyone else has already answered this!).
Regards,
fredo
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 08:53:13 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Oberg Oil Filters (was K&N filters)
> Ok, I'll consider it! Where can I get an Oberg applications
> book/catalog? Anybody want to fax me the page(s) for an
> 88 Corolla GTS, 4AGE,FWD????????
Well, I learned about them in the LC Engineering catalog that I got back
in '91 or so. (Remember that I said the LC Engineering catalog was a
"must have" for 2xR engine owners [$5] but there stuff was too
expensive...) Anyway, I just went to a local performance shop and told
them if they'd order it for me direct from Oberg and get it cheaper,
that I'd buy it from them. That's an idea if nothing else works.
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 09:49:09 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: FAQ
Kevin Bento wrote me and asked about FAQ's for the group, and what
catalogs/refereces would be good to get. I started to respond directly
to him, but then realized that this is a really good question since
we've gotten quite a few new members recently. What follows is the
response to Kevin which becomes more directed at the whole group toward
the end. Thanks for the question, Kevin.
By your earlier response you obviously received the post in which I
reference Tom Julien. Tom works at Martin Marietta in Orlando and does
a lot of (well, most of) the administration type stuff for me. He
should have or should be sending you a list of users, suppliers, and
books/magazines. Definitely go through the list of suppliers and
request catalogs as appropriate. Some of them are kinda pricey. The
HKS catalog may interest you. I think it is overpriced at $5, but it
really is more aligned toward users like yourself who are into the real
pricey, techy stuff. The old TRD catalog was the Toyota Modders prayer
book, but now they've gone to a wimpy three page, "tuned to the type of
car you have" catalog. Get it (the new wimpy one is free), and then get
the Luis Fuz catalog which has most of the old catalog reproduced in
it. The Luis Fuz catalog (That's a dealership that specializes in mail
ordering Toyota and TRD parts _cheap_) may or may not cost you,
depending on who you talk to at LF Toyota.
LC Engineering is an excellent catalog, jammed full of performance
information, but it was more 2xR engine related, and focused a bit more
on trucks than on Celica's. That may have changed. Anybody with the
new catalog want to give us a review?
I have ordered the Paeco catalog and will review it when I get it.
The Toyota Modders Bible (in the book/mag list) is the Toyota
Performance Handbook, and is a better FAQ than we could ever hope to
recreate. Get it. Read it. Live it. (Hello Ben! I finally got your
copy of the TPH and will be mailing it soon. Sorry so slow!)
Finally, a resource that I started but have really not done as much with
as I should is the Toyota Mods Mosaic Server. Get Mosaic for your
machine and connect up. Now that I have a machine at home and can do
some work in the evenings without being "at work", I expect to get
things moving on this. The TMMS is limited only by our imagination. It
is a bit of a sore spot for some members who have mail/news-only access
to the internet, but I really think that we should move ahead with our
implementation of this tool. Soon, all of the commercial hookups will
be forced by the market to supply full internet availability, and when
that happens we will have this resource ready for all of our users.
Chris
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 11:51:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Oberg Oil Filters
To: Chris Myer
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Chris, could you tell us how you assemble the filter. Do you have to
disassemble anything?
Thanks,
Celica-boy #73
pdang@ctp.org
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From: garyh@sco.com
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 12:09:41 PDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
>
>> > BTW, after I installed the K&N in my V8(no flames!) , There is a
>loud
> ^^^^
>> >sucking sound everytime I sep on the gas. I LOVE THAT SOUND!
> ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
>> > Louis
>>
>> Is that what Ross Perot was talking about?
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>
>Only on the Mexican-made K&N filters!
>
>Chris
Dude, I am Mexican ! Watch it buster!
Gary
Ps. Just kidding :)
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From: dsieber@sol.uvic.ca
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Celica Mods...
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 23:41:14
Hi folks!
Well, after lurking on this list for a while, I figured it was about
time I actually posted something... ;-) I tried doing this a couple of
weeks ago, but my posting seems to have disappeared into the ether
somewhere along the way. (Either that, or everyone is just ignoring
me. ;-) I guess I should warn you now... this is likely to be a little
long...
I'm the owner of an '86 Celica GT-S, that's in pretty good shape, with
about 130,000kms on it. I'm starting to look at some ideas to help
inprove the performance/handling, now that I might actually have some
spare cash this summer (the wonders of a student's life. :-( However,
my problem is that I've never done anything like this before, and I
have no idea where to start!
With all the discussions about air filters lately, I've decided that
I'm going to try to track down a K&N filter for my Celica... However,
I have no idea where to find one. Is it best to find a place locally
(assuming there is one), or do you folks have recommendations on a
mail-order firm that will serve us folks up here in Canada? The other
question is, am I likely to die of shock when I see the price tag? ;-)
(Just for comparasion, a regular paper filter is ~$20.00 Can w/taxes
at the local Canadian Tire).
However, the question is, where to go from here? As I mentioned, I
have no experience in this. However, I do have access to a lot of
tools, am reasonably coordinated, and have a few friends who know their
way around an engine. One of my friends even mentioned having a
turbo-charger that would fit my engine... but that brings up a *huge*
list of questions. Topping the list is "Is it worth it? Am I likely
to kill my engine/drivetrain/whatever with the extra power? Am I
going to have to modify anything in the ignition/fuel injection/computer
control to get it to work? Any important things I should watch out for?"
Last question (at least for now...) is, what about struts? My front
struts are rapidly approaching the end of their lifetimes, so I
figure now is the perfect time to think of putting something better on.
Recommendations? Places to get them? (If you know of one in Vancouver,
BC, I'll be in your debt! :) Cost compared to regular (generic) struts?
(The local "shock & struts only" place quoted me $99 + tax Can to replace
both front struts about a year ago. I assume I will pay more for
better performance.. but how much more?
Well, I think that about does it for the moment... sorry to flood
you with what might be foolish questions... I'd appreciate any tips
you may have, either mailed to the list, or directly to me at
"dsieber@unixg.ubc.ca"
Thanks!
Dirk
--
Dirk Sieber dsieber@sol.uvic.ca dsieber@amiga.uvic.ca (well, kinda ;-)
Vice President of the University of Victoria Computer Science Course Union
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Coming to you through the wonders of SLIP from my Amiga 3000... ;-)**
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING: Don't reply to the "From: header of this message. Please make
sure your software is using the "Reply-To" header of "dsieber@sol.uvic.ca"
Thanks!
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 23:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
To: Aaron Lung
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Aaron typed:
> Is it naive to assume that if I blow out my paper filter regularly
> that I can technically use it indefinitely (well, *much* longer
> than otherwise)? Them paper filters get real expensive real quick!
I think you'll know better when to throw it out and get a new one.
Acutally, it's too bad Toyota doesn't take them back (or do they) and
give you credit on your next pruchase of an air filter. They look like
they're recyclable, like soda cans...
Later,
Celica-boy #73
pdang@ctp.org
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 23:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: K&N air filter
To: The Toyota Mods Mailing List
I put my K&N back in today. The car definitely shifts later but not
by a lot... say no more than 500 rpms. The car picks up, not much, on the
low rpms.
Oh yeah, about the inclined curve I mentioned in the earlier message: the
car shifted into the next gear at ~30 mph. With the K&N installed, the car
shifted at ~36 mph. Whatever I said about this is incorrect.
YMMV,
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Celica-boy #73 pdang@ctp.org San Francisco, California
87 Celica ST, 3S-FE, 76K miles
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From: marec911@raven.csrv.uidaho.edu
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 01:58:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Lidar
To: Aaron Lung
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Aaron Lung wrote:
>
> Hey, does anyone know what the number of Valantine-1's
> is to get a quantity discount?
>
> Hmmm...if we can get enough of us interested in purchasing
> enough to get the price break... It was 6 when the Passports
> were hot several years ago.
>
> BTW, I'm seriously interested in one, but not at $400!!
>
> aaron
>
I think the number is 1-800 331 3030
I'm not sure if thats still it though.
Tom
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From: k124476@ee.tut.fi
Subject: AAAARGH! Need rims!
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota-mods mailing list)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 17:19:17 EET DST
I'm looking for a set of rims for my Carina, but no luck so far.
I need:
alloy 15"*7", 4*114.3mm (4*4.5"), 10mm (3/8") offset
1) Does anyone even have rims like this in their pre-85 Celica
or equivalent?
2) Which companies still make rims like this?
3) How much does a new/used set cost in the US?
Thanks for your help!
--
Matti Kalalahti | Toyota Carina Coupe GT-T TwinCam Turbo
k124476@ee.tut.fi | RWD * IRS * 3T-GTEU * 160hp * 206Nm * '82
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 08:53:07 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Oberg Oil Filters
> Chris, could you tell us how you assemble the filter. Do you have to
> disassemble anything?
>
> Thanks,
> Celica-boy #73
> pdang@ctp.org
*WARNING!* What follows is a crude attempt at ascii-art!
|--------<<>>flow>>>------| |_|
^----Little jobber that screws in
where
Your oil filter used to go.
^----Two hydraulic hoses.
^----Filter, viewed from side.
|----------|
| * * |
| | <----Filter, viewed from top. * = 1/2" bolt
| |
| * * |
|----------|
_____
/ \
| | <----Screen, (Perfectly round, actually) is extremely fine
| | wire mesh with rubber edge for seal.
\-----/
To clean filter:
_
//
// <---Top half (Free after bolts removed.)
//
//
-
|=========| <---Bottom (bolted to firewall or whatever)
1.) Take four bolts out.
2.) Lift top half of filter (with hose connected) off.
(Bottom is bolted to firewall or whatever and stays in place)
3.) Lift screen out and clean.
4.) Assembly is reverse of disassembly.
(I've always wanted to say that!)
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 09:15:17 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Celica Mods...
Dirk:
I'm sure you'll get some other good advice, but make sure you get the
Toyota Performance Handbook and read it carefully. Also, some of the
catalogs I mentioned in my post yesterday are "must-haves".
Based on where you are starting, I'd get the suspension right first.
Study up and get a good set of strut inserts that will do what you
want. Springs are also a good idea, but maybe not that necessary.
Depends on what you want to do. Also, putting poly bushings in all of
the suspension components will make a _huge_ difference. Several of the
members have done that and hopefully someone can give you some details.
I wouldn't screw with the engine too much just yet. The problem with
EFI is that any engine mod turns into a fairly major deal. You may want
to adjust the air-flow dealy (Someone else has to tell you about this
one) and put in a K&N filter or something, but that's probably enough
for now. Hopefully Kevin will make some great strides on deciphering
the Toyota brain boxes and give us some clues on how to reprogram it for
greater performance.
Good luck.
Chris
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From: pinegv!wg@riem.com
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 08:21:47 PDT
Subject: Re:Celica Mods...('Toyota Performace Handbook')
To: Toyota-Mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Is there a newer version of the 'Toyota Performance Handbook' then 1990 ?
The 1990 edition has 3 pictures of altracs, mentions why toyota went to altrac
but has very little other information on altrac's or for that matter Celica
parts past 1985. I mean its a good book but references to parts for any Celica
past 1985 mostly aren't there. Other Models are covered farly well up thru 1989.
Wayne
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From: pinegv!wg@riem.com
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 10:45:29 PDT
Subject: RE: Toyota Performace Handbook
To: pdang@eis.calstate.edu, Toyota-Mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
I got my copy at Barnes And Noble in Salt Lake City, Utah two days ago. It was
their last copy. I hadn't seen it anywhere else, But Staceys is a good book
store, if they don't have it they will get it. Its Written by Pat Braden,
Published by Motorbooks international, ISBN 0-87938-320-8.
Wayne
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 10:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Toyota Performace Handbook
To: "Wayne R. Graves"
Cc: Toyota-Mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
> Is there a newer version of the 'Toyota Performance Handbook' then 1990 ?
Where can I get my hands on a copy? Stacey's Book Story?
Thanks,
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Phillip Dang pdang@ctp.org San Francisco, California
Celica-boy #73
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From: derek_deeter@rainbow.mentorg.com (Derek Deeter)
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 16:12:04 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Celica Mods...
> One of my friends even mentioned having a
> turbo-charger that would fit my engine... but that brings up a *huge*
> list of questions. Topping the list is "Is it worth it? Am I likely
> to kill my engine/drivetrain/whatever with the extra power? Am I
> going to have to modify anything in the ignition/fuel injection/computer
> control to get it to work? Any important things I should watch out for?"
>
Definitely worth it - you can get the biggest gain in power with the most
driveability. If you stay conservative - say, less than 10psi boost, you
shouldn't have any problems with engine or drivetrain. With about 7-10 psi,
you should be able to gain about 50-66% in HP, and still retain your stock
idle. Anything higher, and you're looking at heavier engine modifications.
There is a _very_ good book on turbocharging by Hugh MacInnes called
Turbochargers and Turbocharging, (HP books), which gives all the details
you'll ever want to know - it's pretty much the bible of custom automotive
turbocharging installations, and includes specifications on turbochargers,
calculations for sizing, types of applications, what to do about timing,
fuel, and other turbo related information. It runs around $20, and is well
worth it if you're at all serious about it.
To summarize briefly what's involved:
Before you get a turbo, you should make sure it is sized for your engine;
if it's too small, you can overspin the turbo which will explode the impellor
or turbine blades; if it's too large, you may not get any boost until you
run out of RPM's. Your engine should be lower compression - 8.5:1 is about
right, you may be able to get away with 9.0:1 with fuel enrichment or timing
changes.
You should have some fabrication skills, if you don't get a kit. You will
need to fabricate some sort of adaptor pipe to plumb the exhaust into the
turbo, along with a flange to mount the turbo. Also some sort of pipe from
the turbo to the intake of the throttle body. Then some sort of air cleaner
onto the inlet of the turbo, like the K&N stuff that's been talked about
lately. You will also have to plumb an oil line from the block to the turbo,
and an oil return from the turbo to the engine. Also required is adapting
the exhaust, which should be free flow as possible. A lot of these parts
or pieces to make them are available from places which sell turbochargers.
Then, you have to figure out the timing - which should be more retarded
under higher boost conditions, and your fuel supply, which may have to be
increased depending on what the capacity is of your fuel injectors. If
you go too lean during boost, you _will_ burn valves, if not pistons. There
are devices which can help you out here, so you may not have to modify
your computer controls.
If you get a kit, they've done all this work for you, which is why you
pay them the big bucks. And a kit is a lot easier to install, usually
only a couple days are involved. Then there is always the question of legality
with the smog police, if your area requires compliance, and if so,
this whole question is moot, unless you find an exempted turbo kit.
As you can see, turbocharging is not at all trivial, but can be a very
rewarding project.
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 19:19:17 -0700
To: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com (Aaron Lung), toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Lidar
On Apr 6, 9:57am, Aaron Lung wrote:
> Subject: Re: Lidar
>
> Hey, does anyone know what the number of Valantine-1's
> is to get a quantity discount?
Well, I just happen to have the number with me :^). The toll-free
number is 1-800/331-3030 and their office number is 513/984-8900
> Hmmm...if we can get enough of us interested in purchasing
> enough to get the price break... It was 6 when the Passports
> were hot several years ago.
>
> BTW, I'm seriously interested in one, but not at $400!!
That sounds like a great idea... let's get a serious headcount on this.
Anyone who is really good on negotiating here? We must also be able to get
them to distribute them too... We could probably handle the local one's easily.
Any volunteers...
Latas,
Botoboy
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From: pinegv!wg@riem.com
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 94 08:34:52 PDT
Subject: 1986-1993 Celica owners might want to look for this Manual...
To: toyota@quack.kfu.com, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
I recently found a new Chiltons manual covering 1986-1993 Celicas, sez it
covers all U.S. and Canadian models of Toyota Celica, Chilton Part Number 8413,
copyright 1993, ISBN 0-8019-8413-0. I was surprised to see that it actually
covers Altracs for 1988-1993. It even shows pictures of changes in engines. It
also has alot of stuff I haven't seen in other pubs, like the fact that the
Altrac radiator Fan sucks 8.8-10.4 amps as aposed to the stock that only sucks
3.2-4.4(manual trans) or 5.8-7.4(automatic). The manual is about an Inch thick
and sells for about 19 bucks U.S.
Wayne
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 1994 11:02:31 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: Lidar
> That sounds like a great idea... let's get a serious headcount on this.
> Anyone who is really good on negotiating here? We must also be able to get
>them to distribute them too... We could probably handle the local one's easily.
> Any volunteers...
>Latas,
>Botoboy
Count me in the serious list.
Not that I'm trying to get out of doing anything here, but, the
interface person should be in the USA otherwise all US
participants will get royally screwed on exchange rates.
I have some thoughts on how to work this group buy thing but we
should get a sublist before I babble on too far.
Can anyone setup a distribution alias on their machine (or
manually distribute stuff) without getting SH*T from their
company?
Thanks,
Fredo
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From: fjo-toymod@majikthise.wpg.paramax.com
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 1994 11:11:48 CDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (toyota-mods mailing list)
Subject: Re: Celica Mods... (K&N)
> With all the discussions about air filters lately, I've decided that
>I'm going to try to track down a K&N filter for my Celica... However,
>I have no idea where to find one. Is it best to find a place locally
>(assuming there is one), or do you folks have recommendations on a
>mail-order firm that will serve us folks up here in Canada? The other
>question is, am I likely to die of shock when I see the price tag? ;-)
>(Just for comparasion, a regular paper filter is ~$20.00 Can w/taxes
>at the local Canadian Tire).
>
> Thanks!
> Dirk
Are you looking for a stock replacement one or are you going to the
cylindrical version?
I paid $45 (yes, CAN$) for the stock replacement one for my 92 2WD
truck (rectangular filter). The cylindrical one is within $15 of
that price I believe, but then you also need the adaptor made. If
you were here in Winnipeg, I would suggest the stock replacement one
as snow and open filters probably don't mix. Out in Victoria (you are
in Victoria. no?) you probaby wouldn't have that problem.
These prices were as purchased from my favorite racing-mechanic. I do
know of at least 2 other "Performance" shops here that can also get them.
Try the yellow pages under "automotive" and look for some places that
specialize in performance parts. I an not convinced that the mail-order
thing really saves you that much money. (is saving $10 worth the hassle
of exchange/duty/not being able to exchange the right one for the wrong
one......)
Regards,
Fredo
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 09:02:49 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Valentine Group-purchase list
Cc: toyota-mods-val@su102a.ess.harris.com
I just created a side group for the Valentine Radar Detector thread.
Its called toyota-mods-val, and I currently have myself, Allan Chen,
Wayne and Fred in the list. If anyone else is considering getting
involved in such a group purchase, email me directly and I'll add you to
the list.
PS: Allan, Fred, and Wayne: I am CCing this to the -val group, so you
should get two copies. If you don't, please let me know.
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 09:13:19 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Lidar
> How much does the Valintine cost ? I see where escort has a 3 band
and laser
> unit(passport) for $265 U.S.
> ...
> It would be interesting to get a gun and try some of these things,
but I
> don't
> have one.
> Wayne
The last test I saw between the newest passport and the valentine had
the val blowing the passport away. It was a very thourough test.
Of course, that is quite a difference in price...($285 vs $400)
Chris
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From: Steven_Jackson.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 11:05:42 EDT
To: UNIXML.."toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com"@lotus.com
Subject: Eibach Contact Information
Here's the full contact information for Eibach:
Eibach Springs
15311 Barranca
Irvine CA 92718
714-727-3700
Also, for springs I recommend HyperCo. I haven't heard them talked about much
among in these circles, but you see them used often on dedicated race cars. I
called them for springs for my TVR 2500M. I supplied them with specs, but they
will also help with design. They are a topnotch business selling topnotch
products.
Phone number for Hyperco: (219)489-8959
I don't know the K&N part number you're looking for, but here's contact
information for K&N:
K&N
561 Iowa Avenue
PO Box 1329
Riverside, CA 92502
714-684-9762
Also, where can I get Toyota performance modification handbooks?
- S
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From: Steven_Jackson.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 14:38:34 EDT
To: UNIXML.."allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com"@lotus.com,
Subject: Re: Lidar
I'm interested in a Valantine at a volume discount. You can count me in.
- S
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From: simmers@sfu.ca
Subject: Suspension Mods
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:47:47 -0700 (PDT)
Good news to you 82 -85 Celica owners! I got new Tokico springs and
urethane bushings last week. I'm still pushing the limit but I
would say that it increased my possible cornering speed by 20km!
About the camber, the springs lowered it 1" so its not too bad,
only the rear wheels were affected. Note of warning...The springs
are stiffer, so the car absorbs the bumbs and you with it! I read a
message from a guy in Victoria with an 86 Celica I believe. I got
my springs and bushings done at LOWRIDERS 83rd 123th Surrey. They
are in the yellow pages. Parts: springs $300 cdn and bushings
(a whole bunch) about $80.
I have talked to my mechanic about a new diff. There was a 1: 4.33
available for the Celica and I think thats what I want. Unless ..
the Supra rear end will fit with disc brakes and higher diff?
I'm outta here for the summer. Tell you all about it in the fall!
Brian Simmers
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 19:04:42 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Suspension Mods
> I have talked to my mechanic about a new diff. There was a 1: 4.33
> available for the Celica and I think thats what I want. Unless ..
> the Supra rear end will fit with disc brakes and higher diff?
The Supra has a larger third member than the Celica, so you've gotta
swap the entire rear-end. I know more about the old 1-piece type
rear-ends than the independent suspension ones, but after quite a bit of
effort, I've found that for my application, the bigger ring gear and
disc brakes weren't worth the effort/$$$ (at least not at my current
level of play.)
> I'm outta here for the summer. Tell you all about it in the fall!
>
> Brian Simmers
Shall we unsubscribe you for the summer? I don't know if your account
goes away or not, but even if it doesn't you might kill a hard drive by
continuing to get all of that mail for the next 4-6 months. (A good
reminder for all of our student-members who will be losing their
accounts over the summer...)
Chris
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 14:38:49 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Toy Mod Monthly Listing ? FAQ ?
Errr... who was posting the FAQ and the member listing
or should I jus ask Chris ? Or Fredo still have a copy ?
Or maybe the long forgotten Tom...
Any Bunny ? =)
-Koji
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 01:20:00 -0700
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer),
Subject: Re: Lidar
On Apr 11, 9:13am, Chris Myer wrote:
> Subject: Re: Lidar
> > How much does the Valintine cost ? I see where escort has a 3 band
> and laser
> > unit(passport) for $265 U.S.
> > ...
> > It would be interesting to get a gun and try some of these things,
> but I
> > don't
> > have one.
> > Wayne
>
> The last test I saw between the newest passport and the valentine had
> the val blowing the passport away. It was a very thourough test.
>
> Of course, that is quite a difference in price...($285 vs $400)
>
> Chris
To top things off too, the Valentine also blew away the Escort in
shielding (from being detected) from the VG-2 (radar-detector detector). It
did lose out in the new Ka bandwidth though... but still detectable within a
third of a mile. And with the price of speeding tickets these days... $400
will be more than justified within 3-5 incidents of detection :^).
Latas,
Botoboy
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To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com, tomj@iplmaster
Subject: Re: Toy Mod Monthly Listing ? FAQ ?
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 08:47:46 -0400
From: Tom Julien
>Errr... who was posting the FAQ and the member listing
>or should I jus ask Chris ? Or Fredo still have a copy ?
>
>Or maybe the long forgotten Tom...
>
>Any Bunny ? =)
Sorry Koji (and the rest of the gang!),
Works been a tad hectic around here lately. The last 'monthly' :(
posting of the TM lists I did was on Jan 21. I will be blasting
those out tonight. I know there's a few new members that haven't
seen these lists yet and I promised FredO them a few weeks ago --
thanks for being patient.
Things should return to a little more normal by May 2. Until
tonight ...
/*************************************************************
Thomas J. Julien E-Mail: tomj@orl.mmc.com
Engineer, Image Processing Lab Tel: 407-356-3442
Martin Marietta Corp. Fax: 407-356-8944
*************************************************************/
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From: rmats1!wg@riem.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 11:29:46 PDT
Subject: Re: K&N air filters
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Ok, ok, so I called AJ-USA, and it's true, 40% off list, so thats $35 bucks for
my 88 celica all trac, so I ordered one, it takes them 2 days to get it and they
ship it UPS, in California, thats 2-3 days more. $35 is just over the price of
a stock one, so what the hell...
Thanks for the input on the sale 'Celica-boy #73'.
Wayne
p.s. that 1-800-877-1911 in case you lost that message
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 08:58:12 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Valentine Group Purchase List
Just wanted the entire group to know that the Valentine Group Purchase
List is forming up nicely with about 10 members so far. If you are
interested in purchasing a Valentine at a reduced price, its not too
late to join. Email me directly and I'll get your name on the list.
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 12:05:16 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Valentine Group Purchase Info
Fact is, I don't have any info at this point. But quite a few folks
were interested, so I'll tell you what I do know. The Valentine retails
for around $400. Someone suggested we form a group and try to get a
discount based on volume. That Valentine will even consider it is only
speculation. I myself think $400 is a bit steep, but if we could get
them down to something closer to the Top of the line Escort (around
$320-340, say) then I'd be ready to buy.
This may be all wishful thinking, or it may be our only chance to get
the best radar detector in the world for a discount price. Only one way
to find out though.
BTW, don't anyone get in a hurry. The last time I heard, Valentine had
about a 6 month backlog of orders!
Chris
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From: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:01:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Disable EGR valve!
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
I have heard the advantage of disable the EGR valve by using a BB gun shot,
but is there disadvantage? As far as I know, after you disable the valve,
more oxygen is going to the engine and the combusion temp. will go higher
than normal, will the engine overheat or making any damage? Also the percentage
of NO or NO2 is increase, that means more chemical reaction and heat inside
the catalytic converter, is that right? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Cheers,
Simon
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From: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:24:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 4AGE mods
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
I start my first mods on my car yesterday by putting a Walker Super Turbo
muffler and a 2 1/4" custom pipe. Now there is more horsepower and I feel
it is worth($135). I also try to replace the catalystic converter with a
test pipe and that is so exciting. I never think that my car can accerelate
so fast. But I put the converter back later because the car is so noisy.
Is there anyway I can do to lower the noise level with a test pipe on?
Cheers,
Simon
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From: kbento@vnet.ibm.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 15:55:53 EDT
To: TOYOTA-MODS@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: 4AGE mods
Simon,
I did a similiar mod to a VW GTI with headers, baffle pipe (to replace
cat) and a turbo exhaust. I also noticed very good performance and flow.
My VW was very loud after the mod so I took "header tape" and wrapped it
around the headers and the baffle pipe (the test pipe in your case) and
it quieted it down a bunch. Still sounded good, though.
Kevin Bento
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 16:04:51 EDT
To: Toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: 4AGE mods
> I start my first mods on my car yesterday by putting a Walker Super
Turbo
> muffler and a 2 1/4" custom pipe. Now there is more horsepower and I
feel
> it is worth($135). I also try to replace the catalystic converter with
a
> test pipe and that is so exciting. I never think that my car can
accerelate
> so fast. But I put the converter back later because the car is so
noisy.
> Is there anyway I can do to lower the noise level with a test pipe
on?
I think you're either gonna have to live with the noise or get a
different muffler (or leave the cat on). If you look back at the
muffler review I posted, you'll see that the Walker Super Turbo is
louder than average. The Walker Hemi, on the other hand, is one of the
quieter mufflers, yet had even better performance than the regular
Walker Super Turbo.
Chris
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From: do@etdesg.trw.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 13:41:27 PDT
To: Toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: 4AGE mods
>
> > I start my first mods on my car yesterday by putting a Walker Super
> Turbo
> > muffler and a 2 1/4" custom pipe. Now there is more horsepower and I
> feel
> > it is worth($135). I also try to replace the catalystic converter with
> a
> > test pipe and that is so exciting. I never think that my car can
> accerelate
> > so fast. But I put the converter back later because the car is so
> noisy.
> > Is there anyway I can do to lower the noise level with a test pipe
> on?
>
> I think you're either gonna have to live with the noise or get a
> different muffler (or leave the cat on). If you look back at the
> muffler review I posted, you'll see that the Walker Super Turbo is
> louder than average. The Walker Hemi, on the other hand, is one of the
> quieter mufflers, yet had even better performance than the regular
> Walker Super Turbo.
>
> Chris
>
I don't think the cat cuts down the noise level that much, does it? Anyhow,
Chris is right, The Hemi is alot quieter than the Super Turbos. But you'll
get used to the exhaust hum. Any hi-flow exhaust system will be noiser than
stock. Gotta pay for performance. I have 2 Super Turbos in my truck and
like them very much. Isn't the Hemi also known as the Ultraflow? What
ever you do, don't get Borla or Slowmasters.. Talk about loud.
Louis
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From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 16:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Cc: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Subject: News From the Front . . .
Well, I've been sorely remiss in posting to the list for several months now, but
the low level of traffic seems to indicate that everybodies been pretty busy
too. So Chris, I humbly beg your forgiveness, oh humble and most generous
list-sensei. . . .
Anyway lots of odds and ends here so READ ON!!
First, the matter of my HEADER QUEST. Yes, after losing my beloved $35,
18 gauge steel plumbing (though it served me faithfully for almost 8 years)
I decided it was time to give the old girl a set of new pipes. Well many phone
calls insued to various manufacturer's too numerous to mention. I finally sought
out old Doug Thorley himself who, as you know, supplies TRD with tri-Y's. Well
after asking some questions I inquired as to where I might obtain the best
price (Hey its always worth a shot, ain't it). "J&M Performance" (caution here,
its been a while but this sounds right) was the reply. One more phone call and
the opportunity to purchase Tri-Y's for $189 (US) was staring me right in the
face. Yes, that's right, TRD up the street wants $329 for the same pipes, I
was pretty palpitant to purchase pipes at such a preposterously precious price!!
Granted, this is still a pretty steep price, but the gauge steel suits my
fancy and they're TRD blessed. Needless to say, I jumped at the offer. Now,
what about these old Tri-Y's. Fit and finish is crude. Everythings slip fitted
and welded, as opposed to butt welded (read this as EXTRA WASTED WEIGHT).
Adapting to my existing system, which has maintained the basic stock geometry,
required HEAVY hack saw and multiple fitting action. No problem here other than
verbally I was led to believe this wouldn't be necessary. I should have known.
The collector extension slips over the header reducer but no u-bolt was included
to seal up the joint (Thank God for J C Whitney - SS u-bolts for under $10).
All the hardware was standard steel. No thanks, I replaced it with stainless.
Finally there's that damn chrome job. Like I said, its crude and obviously a
waste due to the temperatures. For know I'll live with it.
I did locate and call the Jet-Hot people to see what that's all about. My
personal feeling is their making a fortune based mostly on hype. First, I
won't argue with the durability of such a coating system. But all these claims
about horsepower gains, reduction in temperatures, and other hokum regurgitated
by second hand sales-droids I found a bit tiring. To add insult to injury they
wanted $230 +$20 to do my headers and I had to pay for shipping both ways. They
didn't say whether Vasoline was included as part of the package.
Enough on headers, onto mufflers. Chris's post I while back contained some
interesting data that might help us postulate horsepower gains resulting from
swapping only mufflers. I seem to recall the spread was something like 5%???
Granted there's more to the picture, but the article at least provides us with
hard data on what a low restriction muffler can do for our cars. I must
admit that when I found a SS Borla in the J C Whitney catalog for $80 (with 10%
discount) I grabbed one. The inlet on my Flowmaster was starting to show some
serious rust so I felt justified. My opinion is Borla builds one of the best
mufflers around.
Oh yeah, there was lots of talk on K&N's a while back. I run with one, BUT
I've severely chopped up my airbox to get all I can out of it. If you drop one
right in to the stock system I think your selling yourself short on its full
potential. For fuel injected engines I'll admit its not always easy, but for
us carb-weanies, wiping out the airbox is the way to go. AND that place that
claims a BIG discount on K&N's. Well, out of curiousity I called and they
listed the filter I was using for $36. The local performance shop will sell
it for $25!!!! You make the call (misleading advertising if you ask me).
Then there's my damn suspension!!! I'm about to pull the urethane bushings
out of my front control harms. TOO DAMN HARSH. John Hacker mentioned this
a while back and was right on. Every where else the new bushings are fine, but
for my set up, the control arms ride better with rubber. I'm also pulling out
my old, and I mean old, Turn-Six sway bars. Chris and I talked about
suspensions a little off line and we both agreed mods should be approached
with caution and discretion. The '78 Celica rolls about like a beached whale in
a stock configuration so I'm convinced front and rear bars are necessary, more
in the front than the rear. Well, I settled on ADDCO bars based on their
reputation as well as the great technical support I received when I called to
ask some questions. Their front bar is 1" and the back is 3/4" for the early
Celica's.
ADDCO makes adjustable end-links which I plan on getting also to give be some
tuning flexibility. By the way, I haven't done any REAL engineering myself to
determine if the diameters are what I really need. I'm probably putting too
much trust in ADDCO, but we shall see. By the way, JC Whitney (getting tired of
hearing that name I bet!!!) sells ADDCO bars for half the going rate, so check
it out.
Finally, I'm about to mount Yokohama A509's 195/60's on my 15x7 rims. THANKS
John Lupien for the recommendation. I'm running RE71's on my 944 and am very
pleased, but I felt the A509s might have an edge over the RE71's four year old
design. Got them from the Tire Rack (nothing new there).
Jeez, what alot of bandwidth!! last two note's. First, seems like there's
been some traffic regarding "to mod, or not to mod". I say "to mod". Its good
clean grease under the finger nails fun that gives you seat of the pants
satisfaction. Just keep the old parts and try not to cut too much metal, trust
me. AND I think Chris is going to talk me into a new Weber one of these days.
Heck, I've got nothing left to do on the damn car after that, or maybe I
could . . . .
Clark
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From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:02:10 -0700 (PDT)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Cc: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Subject: LC Engineering Catalog
Chris wrote:
>LC Engineering is an excellent catalog, jammed full of performance
>information, but it was more 2xR engine related, and focused a bit more
>on trucks than on Celica's. That may have changed. Anybody with the
>new catalog want to give us a review?
Drool, drool, drool . . . .
Like you said, lots and lots of 2XR engine stuff. Sexy layout and way, way,
way out prices. Information content (for me) was minimal, but its interesting
with regards to what their shop is up to with my block.
Clark
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 21:22:40 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: LC Engineering Catalog
> Drool, drool, drool . . . .
>
> Like you said, lots and lots of 2XR engine stuff. Sexy layout and
way, way,
> way out prices. Information content (for me) was minimal, but its
interesting
> with regards to what their shop is up to with my block.
>
> Clark
>
Hmmmm, they must have changed their content then if the information
content was not there. Their old catalog was great. Of course I know
several orders of magnitude more about the 2xR engine than when I first
got that catalog, so maybe it just seemed full of info. Or maybe they
did a TRD and dropped all hints of information. Too bad.
Chris
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From: baram@sdolan5.attmail.com
Date: 14 Apr 94 01:37:30 GMT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New Member
Yo guys,
My name is Andrew Young and I was registered with your group by my brother,
Errol. However, I have seen the list of members and where my name appears the
year of my car is wrong. It is 85 instead of 84. Also, I have a 82 starlett
that has the stock 4KC engine with the 33/50 down draft Weber coburator (sp).
My question is: Has any one tried to increase the 4AGE engine (US version)
from 1.6 to 1.7 litres? and if did, how much more horse power is it than the
original 1.6.
Reason I am asking this question is that my friend , a mechanic with toyota
modification experience, said that if I increase my engine to the 1.7, I would
get approximately 30 more horse power and putting the exhaust cam on the
intake will increase that conversion approximately another 20 more horse
power. However, I will have to change my differential to a lower gear ratio
to compensate the power.
Also, are these conversion feasible?
Thanx,
Andrew...
BARAM DE DON.......
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 01:05:51 -0700
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Valentine 1 and CHP
On Apr 13, 11:44pm, Phillip Dang wrote:
> Subject: Valentine 1 and CHP
>
> Hi Allan, you're not worried about the CHP pulling you over and
> discovering that you have one of them gizmos?
No not at all... It's not illegal in California.
> I don't think the officer would like to see it.
He may just get alittle peeved but nothing more. He/she may be more
prone to issue a ticket.
> I was reading on rec.autos about stashing the
> radar detectors right before being pulled over, but I think the police
> would be sharp enough to know what the driver is up to.
Very true, but not highly recommended. You want to draw as little
attention as possible. And attempting to stash the detector at the last minute
sure does not help... It means the officer will see that you are attempting to
hide something... in order to pull you over the officer is usually right behind
you. Under most police procedures, an officer will further investigate if
anything has aroused his/her suspicions. You would definitely not want to make
him suspect you to be a drug dealer or something.
You can say I have been pulled over more than once in my lifetime
*hahaha*.
> Also, something about bouncing the radar off reflective signs such as exit
> signs...
That is why the Valentine-1 is such a detector of choice. The only way
the officer picks up those reflected signals is usually with a VG-2 (a radar
detector detector). And the Valentine-1 is a very well shielded unit (see C&D
comparison). The only other detector that came close was the BEL ???? (Excuse
me I don't quite remember the model #). And if it is a reflected signal...
unless you are the only one around, I believe the officer would have a really
hard time attmepting to discern who sent off the signal.
Well, that is my little plug for Valentine-1. Hmmmm, I wonder if I
send him this email... he will give me a really big discount.
Latas,
Allan Chen
Silicon Graphics Inc.
Mountain View, CA
allanc@sgi.com
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 08:17:34 -0700
To: baram@sdolan5.attmail.com (Andrew Young),
Subject: Re: New Member
On Apr 14, 1:37am, Andrew Young wrote:
> Subject: New Member
> Yo guys,
>
> My name is Andrew Young and I was registered with your group by my brother,
> Errol. However, I have seen the list of members and where my name appears
the
> year of my car is wrong. It is 85 instead of 84. Also, I have a 82 starlett
> that has the stock 4KC engine with the 33/50 down draft Weber coburator (sp).
Wassup dude, welcome to the list.
> My question is: Has any one tried to increase the 4AGE engine (US version)
> from 1.6 to 1.7 litres? and if did, how much more horse power is it than the
> original 1.6.
I do know that TRD makes a stroker kit to make a little 1.6 to a 1.8.
I am not certain of the horsepower figures either. Might be something to
investigate with TRD. Darn, Roger our Starlet/4AG guru is not on the mailing
list at the time... but will be back soon. I hope.
> Reason I am asking this question is that my friend , a mechanic with toyota
> modification experience, said that if I increase my engine to the 1.7, I
would
> get approximately 30 more horse power and putting the exhaust cam on the
> intake will increase that conversion approximately another 20 more horse
> power. However, I will have to change my differential to a lower gear ratio
> to compensate the power.
Why? Are you planning to build a little peppy, zingy, quarter-horse
that will do road courses well or a little top-speed demon?
> Also, are these conversion feasible?
Sound very feasable :^).
Latas,
Botoboy
Silicon Graphics Inc.
Mountain View, CA
allanc@sgi.com
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From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 9:34:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Cc: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Subject: Re: New From the Front . . .
I wrote:
[snip]
>I finally sought
>out old Doug Thorley himself who, as you know, supplies TRD with tri-Y's. Well
>after asking some questions I inquired as to where I might obtain the best
>price (Hey its always worth a shot, ain't it). "J&M Performance" (caution
>here, its been a while but this sounds right) was the reply. One more phone
>call and the opportunity to purchase Tri-Y's for $189 (US) was staring me
>right in the face. Yes, that's right, TRD up the street wants $329 for the
>same pipes, I was pretty palpitant to purchase pipes at such a preposterously
>precious price!!
[snip]
Slight correction (but I warned you), it was J&M Speed Center, Riverside CA.
Phone (909) 688-7110
Clark
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 17:57:52 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: 5AGE Motor Attention Andrew (4AGE .30 Bore)
From: baram@sdolan5.attmail.com (Andrew Young)
Date: 14 Apr 94 01:37:30 GMT
>Yo guys,
Aloha Dude... (Gee... why don't we have any females on here ? I know there
are tons of female types down here that do conversions to their toys...)
>My name is Andrew Young and I was registered with your group by my brother,
>Errol. However, I have seen the list of members and where my name appears the
>year of my car is wrong. It is 85 instead of 84. Also, I have a 82 starlett
>that has the stock 4KC engine with the 33/50 down draft Weber coburator (sp).
Woah a 33/50 ?!?!?! Thats like an old Racing downdraft carb... wow... I wanted
one of those... of course... I did drill out my jets to about that side...
Look for a dual carb manifold for your starlet... big time improvement
although ya gada turn ya carbs so often the Progressive type is pretty stable
and you can run up to or as low as 15 second quarter mile time slips with one..
>My question is: Has any one tried to increase the 4AGE engine (US version)
>from 1.6 to 1.7 litres? and if did, how much more horse power is it than the
>original 1.6.
Hmmmm.... I basically didnt jump on this cause I thought someone else would
but anyways.... the motor you are looking for in stock form is the 5AGE which
comes in the 94 Corolla's. It is a 1.7 block twin cam 16 valve motor.
You could basically just buy the newer block and build that but -shrug-
anyways... that wasn't your question.
>Reason I am asking this question is that my friend , a mechanic with toyota
>modification experience, said that if I increase my engine to the 1.7, I would
>get approximately 30 more horse power and putting the exhaust cam on the
>intake will increase that conversion approximately another 20 more horse
>power. However, I will have to change my differential to a lower gear ratio
>to compensate the power.
Errrrr.... Basically your mechanic friend is correct. However the exhaust cams
and the intake cams are interchangeable but in stock form ya... you can get
away with that... but why ? I see for performance reasons but if you gonna
go and purchase another "cam" weither intake or exhaust why not just go out
and buy a new set of cams ? Or Am I missing something here...
Boring will always increase horsepower but this also involves head work and
also piston work also. In this case you can buy the "stock" 5ag pistons and
shove those in there. Or... you could go with Weisco Piston set or Arias
pistons or even well... it comes down to a question of forged vs cast pistons
I have my own opinions about this and my own gripes...but to each their own.
Actually with the TRD cams and a dual carb set up with stock gearing you
can take your 4AGE upwards to speeds of 150 mph with over 8000rpm.
I wouldn't change your "stock" 4.3 gearing on your car. A New LSD would be nice
although.
Horsepower figures are available through TRD if you ask the right people,but
the 4AGE bore took them up towards 1.7 but they also did head work and intake
work also which is necessary.
Do you wanna use a "stock" head with no intake mods ? Stock Cams ? Etc ?
Other then that its kinan hard to figure out... espically with a 4age motor
that is infinately tuneable for all different situations...
>Also, are these conversion feasible?
Feasiable.... anything you wanna do for your own purpse is feasable... just on
how serious ya wanna get =)
>Thanx,
>Andrew...
Sorry I didn't answer much... but if ya pondering... Call RJ and ask
them about their convesions =)
>BARAM DE DON.......
Asta La Pasta (Or something...)
Oh... Side comment... if your car is a Corolla GTS from 1984-1985 you have the
big stickers "twin cam 16 valve" on the side or such and also have a sunroof
option then you also have the speed and rev limiter. Your top speed is 120
mph then you have a fuel cutoff and in some models the motor will rev till
7500 then shut the motor down... on 1986 GTS models and up you can hit your
rev limiter and bounce it like crazy...
- Allen T "Koji" Kam Bubbling as usual...
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
| Allen T "Koji" Kam tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu |
| Life Life... koji@io.soest.hawaii.edu |
| Taste Death... koji%interact.uucp@netcom.com |
| Speed is Pure !!!!! |
| Don't let up till you see RED !! 1980 Toyota Trueno SR-5 Sports Coupe |
| Advan Racing / HKS / MSD / SSR / Toyota Racing Development / Yokohama Tires |
| V-8's are a Blast...but i kinna gotta have to save GAS !!! |
| How SERIOUS do YOU wanna GET ??!?!?!! Sum times ya GADA pay the Price.... |
| Love is the only ting dat has 2 be earned... |
| Eberry ting else can be hacked ! - Reflex the Kismet Thief of Hearts |
| Setting the Standards..... -Benchmark Racing |
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 18:05:52 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: BB Shot is Bad ?!?!?!
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:01:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Subject: Disable EGR valve!
>I have heard the advantage of disable the EGR valve by using a BB gun shot,
>but is there disadvantage? As far as I know, after you disable the valve,
>more oxygen is going to the engine and the combusion temp. will go higher
>than normal, will the engine overheat or making any damage? Also the percentage
>of NO or NO2 is increase, that means more chemical reaction and heat inside
>the catalytic converter, is that right? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yes... Also basically you are gonna get worse gas milage due to greater
combustion and the gasses not being reburned so you polluting the air more
so its not cleaner exhaust. Basically you aren't doing anything bad to
harm the motor from what we noticed down here but of course we have no
emission laws down here... So I don't know what bad effects there is but
we found no determental effects on our cars down here.
Also a side note like a turbo supra will idle smoother with the motor
"bb-shot" then without it... the gases tend to lean out the air to fuel
mixture more so it causes a tuning pain... or something...
>Cheers,
>Simon
Zima !
-Koji
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
| Allen T "Koji" Kam tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu |
| Life Life... koji@io.soest.hawaii.edu |
| Taste Death... koji%interact.uucp@netcom.com |
| Speed is Pure !!!!! |
| Don't let up till you see RED !! 1980 Toyota Trueno SR-5 Sports Coupe |
| Advan Racing / HKS / MSD / SSR / Toyota Racing Development / Yokohama Tires |
| V-8's are a Blast...but i kinna gotta have to save GAS !!! |
| How SERIOUS do YOU wanna GET ??!?!?!! Sum times ya GADA pay the Price.... |
| Love is the only ting dat has 2 be earned... |
| Eberry ting else can be hacked ! - Reflex the Kismet Thief of Hearts |
| Setting the Standards..... -Benchmark Racing |
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: Plugs.. Plugs... Plugs....
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (mods)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:08:27 +0800 (WST)
Ok got some time here away from books for a while. Got 3 papers on
Mon,Tues,Wed next week. What do you do to unwind after looking at books for
too long? Tweak the car, of course! :-)
Decided to try Bosch Platinums. Dunno if they are as good as, same as, much
worse, than the $plitfires I now use.
In my 2T-B I use Splitfire #6. As with NGK. But the guy at the store selling
Bosch Plugs said I should go with the #8 Bosch Platinum and leave the
gapping at .8mm. I used to gap my #6 NGK/Splitfires at almost 1.1mm.
Got me a 60KV coil in my TA40 with the 2T-B and electronic ignition.
So what I've done here is to switch from:
Hotter plugs with bigger gaps
To:
Cooler plugs with smaller gaps
Result:
I can't tell the difference. :-(
Anyone got ideas on how to actually test these things out qualitatively /
quantitatively? Anyone using Bosch Platinums? The electrode look awefully
small (guess platinum ain't cheap ...). Think I should try gapping these to
1.1mm?
bentan
TA40/2T-B
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: Closest thing to Indy car
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:45:31 +0800 (WST)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (mods)
> _can_ be networked with other single seaters to give you the one-on-one
> feel. Even if you aren't a video gamer, you should try this one. It's
> the closest thing you'll get to racing an Indy car without spending
> about a million dollars.
Gotta disagree with you here, Chris. "closest thing ...to racing an Indy car
w/o spending $1m" is a Go-Kart! Yup, got myself into Karting 'bout 6mths ago
and I'm really hooked.
T-M-Karting? or perhaps "T-M-racing" anyone?
bentan
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: AH1 Engine.
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:49:06 +0800 (WST)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
> Uhhhh, are the "bullet-proof" or are they self-sealing (or is that what
> you meant?) We have an AH1 Cobra sitting in our lab, and it has a
> self-sealing fuel cell or something like that.
Wonder what would happen we dumped the engine from the AH1 Cobra into a
TA40...
bentan
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 94 13:04:15 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Busy, busy
Sorry I've not done a good job responding to all of the great posts, but
I've been way busy. I'm getting off early this afternoon, but I've got
to go get the car ready for the race tonight. BTW, this is the first
race with a new driver. My buddy sold his car and is now racing mine.
Fine with me. Lot less pain when your car goes into the wall when you
are sitting in the stands. (With my luck, my car will go into the
stands and find me!)
Chris
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: Re: Plugs.. Plugs... Plugs....
To: baram@sdolan5.attmail.com (Andrew Young)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 08:40:56 +0800 (WST)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (mods)
> I have used both the Bosch Platinum and the Split fire plugs in two different
> cars. The platinums were used in my Starlett and the split fire are currently
> being used in my Corrolla.
BTW, how much do splitfires cost where you are.
> I do not see the difference between the regular NGK and Bosch. Because, I am
> currently using the regular NGK and the performance was not any different.
Is that "diff between reg NGK and reg Bosch" or reg NGK and Bosch-Pt?
>
> However, the split fire showed a bit of difference but not much in performance
> but in lastability. What I mean is that I have the split fire in my car for
> about 1+ years and the car runs the same as if it has new plugs.
Actually, my experience with S-Fs is the opposite. i.e. they seem to burn
out faster for me. Perhaps I've got the wrong temp? In my 2T-B, I was
recomended the #6. What do you use in your Starlet (4K? 5K? 2T??!)?
> However, my toyota mod friend told me that the NGK platinums are better and
> they show a better performance. So, when i channge the plugs out of my
> Starlett, I am gonna try NGK platinums give you more info on the performance
> and lastability.
I didn't know NGK had Pt plugs. Do these come in V-Groove also?
What coil do you use? Do you extend the gap on your plugs?
bentan
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 18:01:20 -0700
To: "Benjamin T.P. Tan" ,
Subject: Re: Plugs.. Plugs... Plugs....
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (mods)
On Apr 16, 8:40am, Benjamin T.P. Tan wrote:
> Subject: Re: Plugs.. Plugs... Plugs....
> I didn't know NGK had Pt plugs. Do these come in V-Groove also?
They come factory in performance Toyota cars i.e. Supras, GT-S, MR-2,
etc... and some luxury sedans as well. I am not certain if they make them in a
U-groove... check your local distributor.
Latas,
Allan "Botoboy" Chen
Silicon Graphics Inc.
Mountain View, CA
allanc@sgi.com
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From: fergusos@jeff-lab.queensu.ca
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 94 12:07:02 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: plugs and EGR's
It's about time for new plugs. The last set of NGK's I bought set
me back a small fortune. Bosch platinums are a lot less. The NGK's
have a large solid platinum electrode, while the Bosch's have a fine
platinum wire. Are the NGK's any better? Will the Bosch plugs
last as long?
Also, someone mentioned that fuel economy will drop with a plugged
EGR valve. Can anyone explain why? I don't think that makes sense.
Stephen
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 94 14:59:02 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Plugs and EGR
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 94 12:07:02 EDT
From: fergusos@jeff-lab.QueensU.CA (Stephen Ferguson)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
>It's about time for new plugs. The last set of NGK's I bought set
>me back a small fortune. Bosch platinums are a lot less. The NGK's
>have a large solid platinum electrode, while the Bosch's have a fine
>platinum wire. Are the NGK's any better? Will the Bosch plugs
>last as long?
Hmmm I used both in a 1987 MR-2 4AGE... In "stock" form.
However if you get into serious racing circles the platinum plugs become
more of a hassle then anything else.
A little bubbling here so bear and grim it ;)
Basically platinum plugs burn clean all the time so its harder to tune
your car using platinum plugs. Its possible but no matter what it will burn
clean. And also a BIG problem is that i've melted a few platinum plugs myself.
They work great no doubt... but this was under SERIOUS racing conditions and
got too hot and melted (yes the splitfires too)
The stock Nippon Denso platinum plugs are about $6.00 each i think or so I
4-get anyways... and are U-grooved so they "act" on the same principle as
the "split-fire" plugs or thats where one of the ideers are from.
Bosch platinums I've also used personally and had no problems with them...
however i switched to the Autolite platinum plugs for everday driving
and limited spirited street driving.
For the 4-AGE i use the 3924 Autolites for a better tuning etc etc.
One more plug is the Fram filters for your car. You will notice they have
the a rubber oil ring that is larger then others and I dunno a lot of others
don't have that nice little feature and fit nicely.
Can you tell i'm slightly sponsored by Autolite/Fram ? ;)
Anyways... check the seals on them for oil filters...
>Also, someone mentioned that fuel economy will drop with a plugged
>EGR valve. Can anyone explain why? I don't think that makes sense.
I think I bubbled about this. Your fuel economy will go down because you
are not "reburning" the exhause gases in your car that go back into your
"carb" or "efi" thus it goes straight out into the muffler etc. So you will
run "richer" and have a little better pickup and performance in RPM ranges
etc... Thus your fuel economy will go "down" if you "stomp" on the gas pedal
as an everyday practice (or at least from what we can tell down here)
>Stephen
If this didn't help then let someone else dechiper my bubblings... sowwwy
-Koji
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
| Allen T "Koji" Kam tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu |
| Life Life... koji@io.soest.hawaii.edu |
| Taste Death... koji%interact.uucp@netcom.com |
| Speed is Pure !!!!! |
| Don't let up till you see RED !! 1980 Toyota Trueno SR-5 Sports Coupe |
| Advan Racing / HKS / MSD / SSR / Toyota Racing Development / Yokohama Tires |
| V-8's are a Blast...but i kinna gotta have to save GAS !!! |
| How SERIOUS do YOU wanna GET ??!?!?!! Sum times ya GADA pay the Price.... |
| Love is the only ting dat has 2 be earned... |
| Eberry ting else can be hacked ! - Reflex the Kismet Thief of Hearts |
| Setting the Standards..... -Benchmark Racing |
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
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From: c.pugsley@trl.oz.au
Subject: Gasoline smell in back seat..
To: rx7club@cbjjn.att.com, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 11:07:26 +1000 (EST)
Hi There,
I am wondering if anyone knows how you can get rid of a petrol
(gasoline) smell in a car.
What happened is that a small leak developed from a hose on the pressure
side of the fuel pump and consequently part of the back seat was wetted
with petrol. The amount of petrol that was soaked up was small, but the
smell is quite strong.
Now, how can I get the smell out? Because it soaked into the foam, it
can't be wiped off directly. There is also a slight residual smell from
the bodywork near where the leak was, even though I washed it down with
hot water.
So what are the options?
i/ 'Wash' the seat by soaking in hot water and drying out in front of
a heater (the seat has a metal frame, foam padding and a vinyl
cover).
ii/ Leave the seat in the sun for a few days (so the petrol can
evaporate)
Can anyone offer any tips/experience, or am I wasting my time trying?
I'll give it a go and report on the results.
Cheers,
Craig
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 08:38:58 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Plugs and EGR
One other point of trivia on this subject is that in serious racing,
they replace the plugs about every time the engine is run. When I was
at Daytona watching them practice, they'd run 3 full laps, come in, pull
the plugs, inspect them under a mic glass, toss them (no matter what
condition they were in) and put in a new set.
I think that any serious TM member should pull their plugs each night,
test them, and install a new pair for the next day of driving to work.
Especially if they use the $6 each platinums and such.
;-) (Just kidding!) ;-)
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 09:14:11 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New Racing organization
Well, I mentioned last Friday that I had decided to let my buddy race my
car. It must be a good Owner-Mechanic/Driver combo, 'cause we won.
Actually, we crushed everybody. Tim (my driver) started 12th, and by
lap 4 or so he was in first, and nobody even challenged him. One 200SX
stayed close, but Tim told me after the race that he was trying to lay
back so our victory wouldn't look so suspicious. I thought we were
going to get inspected after the race, but it was 1 am when we got to
the inspection area, and I guess the inspector didn't want to inspect,
because he stood the and never walked over and checked the car.
Now, to make the car "look" legal. :-)
I cut a battery open and pulled all of the lead out of it. I'm gonna
put it up front where the battery "should" be. Then I'm gonna try to
tone down my battery cable that runs to behind the seat. Then, I'm
gonna hit the linkage on the Dual 38mm Weber with some flat black
paint. I hate to do that to such a pretty carb, but it looks too "nice"
now, and will attract attention.
Also, to get the car going a little faster, I'm gonna dump about 75-100
lbs of weight into the fender well just behind the LR tire and pull the
left end of the front sway-bar down tighter. Actually, this is to help
Tim in his driving style. Where I tend to enter and exit the corner low
(and a bit slower), Tim stays high (and a bit faster). Therefore, where
I have a tendency to "push" by going into such a tight turn, Tim
experiences oversteer (as evidenced by him tagging the wall just a bit
exiting turn 2). Adding weight to the rear won't help him in his
oversteer (actually, it will hurt a bit) but that will allow me to pull
the left side of the car down more in the front, which will give him
some push. Tim is used to push, because he was driving a front wheel
drive Omni (and killing everybody!)
I don't feel too bad about my driving, however. Tim's best lap was
19.22, where Tom Julien had timed me at 19.00 the last time I was
practicing, and I had gas pouring out of the carb from a stuck needle
valve. Also, I don't feel any more relaxed in the stands, either. As a
matter of fact, since I can see so much more, it gives me a bunch more
to worry about! Hopefully I'll get used to that.
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 09:30:06 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New Member
Welcome Gary Gitzen to the list. As a bit of an aside, Gary is also the
administrator of the Mustangs list (but we'll forgive him.)
>>>>>Gary Gitzen<<<<<
Name : Gary Gitzen
Location : San Jose, Kalifornia
Model : 1987 Celica GT
Engine : 3S-FE
Mods : none
email : garyg@cup.hp.com
>>>>><<<<<
Welcome aboard, Gary! Let us know what you want to do with that Celica
and we'll try to give you some ideas. We have quite a few members with
that vintage Celica, so you should find some lively discussion.
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 04:13:55 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: New Member / Mustang Stuff
>From cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com Mon Apr 18 03:32:09 1994
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 09:30:06 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
>Welcome Gary Gitzen to the list. As a bit of an aside, Gary is also the
>administrator of the Mustangs list (but we'll forgive him.)
Woah can I join the Mustang List ? Even though my Mustang is in another state ?
1965 Mustang Fastback with Bonnivile Taillights, 454 Chevy with Inglese
Induction (4 Downdraft 48MM Carbs to tune) (*boggle*)
>>>>>Gary Gitzen<<<<<
>Name : Gary Gitzen
>Location : San Jose, Kalifornia
>Model : 1987 Celica GT
>Engine : 3S-FE
>Mods : none
>email : garyg@cup.hp.com
>>>>><<<<<
>Welcome aboard, Gary! Let us know what you want to do with that Celica
>and we'll try to give you some ideas. We have quite a few members with
>that vintage Celica, so you should find some lively discussion.
Heh... Actually that year Celica is quite deceptive. The motor is squared and
the car is deceptively fast. Or it can be fast =)
-Koji
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 04:16:42 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Plugs Bubbling...
>From cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com Mon Apr 18 02:41:03 1994
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 08:38:58 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Subject: Re: Plugs and EGR
>I think that any serious TM member should pull their plugs each night,
>test them, and install a new pair for the next day of driving to work.
>Especially if they use the $6 each platinums and such.
>;-) (Just kidding!) ;-)
Hmmm... why nott he HKS Plugs which are really the NGK ones that go for
$30 each as shown in the HKS Catalogue ;P
AND serious racers don't use platinums cause they tend to melt !
AND they burn clean always so its harder to tune your car ;)
>Chris
-Koji
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From: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 09:53:59 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Plugs and EGR
Chris sez:
}I think that any serious TM member should pull their plugs each night,
}test them, and install a new pair for the next day of driving to work.
}Especially if they use the $6 each platinums and such.
Hey there, Chris, ya forgot to mention putting in new spark
plug wires too! Them electrons wear out the copper atoms
real quick with high speed driving! ;-)
aaron
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From: pdang@eis.calstate.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 11:05:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: 3S-FE = power?
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
> Heh... Actually that year Celica is quite deceptive. The motor is squared and
> the car is deceptively fast. Or it can be fast =)
>
Hey Koji, I know you've said this before, but would you care to elaborate?
I know that TRD doesn't have cams and stuff for the FE motor. 3S-GE, yes.
Maybe plugging the EGR would be a start? ;)
Later,
Celica-boy #73
pdang@ctp.org
87 Celica ST, 3S-FE, 76K miles
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From: do@etdesg.trw.com
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 12:06:51 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: 3S-FE = power?
>
> > Heh... Actually that year Celica is quite deceptive. The motor is squared and
> > the car is deceptively fast. Or it can be fast =)
> >
> Hey Koji, I know you've said this before, but would you care to elaborate?
>
> I know that TRD doesn't have cams and stuff for the FE motor. 3S-GE, yes.
> Maybe plugging the EGR would be a start? ;)
>
I have the 3S-FE engine in my Camry also. Plugging up the EGR might make
the engine ping and you'll have to retard initial timing to get it to run
right. No extra power gain here. Be extra careful when playing w/ EFI systems,
leave the tweaking to someone who know it real well.
Hey guys, I can't seem to find the cat.converter on my Camry ....
honest guys.... I didn't touch it.
I left the car stock for 6 years and I recently been getting urges to do
something w/ it. I'd figured that I'll work work on the basics like the
handling and exhaust system. Off I went to the tire shop for a set of
Yokahamas. Then after a few bloody knuckles, I've managed to swap KYB struts
all around. Biiig difference. So next on the list was the exhaust system.
I crawled under the car to look for possible exhaust mods. I was searching
all over for the cat and didn't find any. Hummmmm..... My wife bought the
car new from a Ca. dealer. It ven has a Ca. emission sticker stating that
it has a Cat. on it. What went wrong(or right)? Well guys, I've been passing
emissions all these years w/out a cat. I guess they don't check too closely
w/ when you got a 4-dr Camry. Funny heh?
So for the exhaust, I am planning on getting the Walker Ultraflow. Anyone
using the Ultraflow care to comment?
Louis
> Later,
> Celica-boy #73
> pdang@ctp.org
> 87 Celica ST, 3S-FE, 76K miles
>
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From: drhamilt@acs.ucalgary.ca
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 01:36:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: (fwd) More power for MR2 please answer again! (fwd)
To: MR2 Interest Mailing List
Cc: Toyota Mods Mailing List
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jlm@mailhost.imageman.com (Joseph L. Meier)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech
Subject: More power for MR2 please answer again!
Date: 18 Apr 1994 20:11:30 -0500
Organization: Image Manipulation Systems Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <2ovb42$n9q@gatekeeper.imageman.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gatekeeper.imageman.com
I asked for information on increasing the HP and Torque on my 85 MR2
Someone answered me once from a place that does special mods and stuff.
I wish you would send me how to contact you again... I lost your message
when the harddrive crashed at my internet connection.
If anyone else can help me get 180+hp out of my 85 Toyota MR2 without
costing an arm and a leg, I'd really appreciate it!
Thanks
Email me at : jlm@imageman.com
--
Joseph L. Meier jlm@imageman.com Minneapolis First Avenue
I'm waiting for that final moment, you say the words that I can't say
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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 13:30:00 EDT
From: msink@aisg.com
To: mr2-interest@validgh.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) More power for MR2 please answer again! (fwd)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com, msink@aisg.com, toyota@quack.kfu.com
First off, I'd like to be added to mailinglist I wasn't aware of, the
Toyota-Mods list.
How should this be done?
As for more HP, I've been researching the idea for about 2 years. I have
an '87. Up utill
recently, you could have 175-180 HP with an HKS turbo Stage III or 226
HP in Stage IV.
Paeco Import parts has high performance engines 152 HP N/A. Bored and
Stroked they said would
be close to 200. I think 175-185 is more like it. This option is pretty
expensive, but you
get a completely new, high performace, everything done to it engine.
TRD has nothing for you, I recently sent out letters to a number of
places asking for the same
thing 200+ HP. NOBODY replied, except PAECO, since they do have engines
available, but noone
could give me a turbo kit or anything.
I talked to the Toystore in Gardena CA. yesterday about a clutch. I
mentioned I was looking
for lots of HP, and Joel said he could come up with a kit using a T3,
v/s the HKS T25 wich
should push the HP towards and maybe past 200, depending on boost, and
other things you do
to the engine. There aren't many option out there that give you 180+ HP
simply because their
isn't a turbo kit readily available.
Does anyone have a comment on clutches? My HKS clutch lasted 20,000. I
thought about TRD
Metallic, Ferrodo, and Centerforce DF. I have the HKS flywheel which
will be eaten up by
some of these clutches. Should I go back to the stock flywheel, if so,
which clutch?
I will be sending a letter to the Toystore outlining my goals for HP. I
would like to do a
slight rebuild with 8:1 CR pistons, cams, and so on, before I had the
Turbo. I mentioned to
them I would like 225 HP @ 6600 RPM. With a T3, cams, low CR pistons,
maybe. If not, 200-225
certainly. He even mentioned a T4, pretty big stuff. I'll let you know
what I head back
with prices. He mentioned about $3500. That's about right, so if you
consider that an arm
and a leg, you're out of luck. Anything cheaper will probably not get
you 180 HP.
Later
Mark Sink
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 14:35:14 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) More power for MR2 please answer again! (fwd)
I must apologize for this boorishness of the individual who has posted
to our group without membership. Be aware that Tom and I are trying to
develop a means of assuring that the members of this good group are
never again subjected to such rude behavior. I believe this is the
second time this has happened today, and I assure you the scoundrels
will be dealt with most severely.
6 Lashes with the 'net-cane?
Chris
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 15:32:30 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New member!
Welcome to the group Jon Kemnitz. Jon's restoration effort should prove
to be quite interesting, especially for our token list Celica All-Trac
owner. (Hey, Wayne, now ya got a friend!). Welcome aboard, Jon.
>>>>>Jon Kemnitz<<<<<
Name: Jon Kemnitz
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Car: 1991 Corolla All-Trac
Engine: 4A-FE
Mods: Totalled in frontal collision by previous owner
Expected future mods: Return to near-original condition and possibly
add
to instrumentation. Basically do not plan to modify it.
E-mail: kemn0005@gold.tc.umn.edu
>>>>><<<<<
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From: lantera@csos.orst.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:58:39 -0700
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Bentley Service Manuals
Has anybody out there used one of these? I just picked up one for my
Celica at a used book store for $7.50. It has 8 pages of wiring diagrams
for my paticular car as well as some of the most complete electrical
problem diagnosis proccedures (they include wire colors) I've ever seen.
I guess my question is are they accurate? This seems almost too good
to be true.
Woodsprite
*******************************************************************************
** * 1983 Celica ST * Joe Woodsprite ***
** Looking for Julie, * * Unsafe at any speed ***
** Whereever I go. * I don't drive * ***
** --- * fast. * lantera@kira.csos.orst.edu ***
** I'll do what it * I fly low. * lanteran@xanth.cs.orst.edu ***
** takes to find her. * * ***
** * 72 Honda CB350 * ***
*******************************************************************************
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 17:02:13 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: (fwd) More power for MR2 please answer again! (fwd)
> I was merely trying to help out a fellow MR2 owner who needed help
which
> I was not qualified to provide. I had no idea that this mailing list
was
> so formal. If you would prefer, send me the necessary documentation
to
> make other Toyota owners aware of the mailing list's existence.
>
> If the list isn't here to help people, then what could possibly be its
> purpose?
>
> Darin ... '86 Toyota MR2
A thousand pardons. I may have confused some folks about whom I was
refering to. There were 2 postings with the exact same subject line as
above. The first was posted by Darin, and was done in impeccably good
taste. Thank you, Darin, for forwarding the message you found on
usenet. I certainly hope the individual in question got all the
assistance he needed.
The second posting was by an individual who just chose to post to our
group without so much as consulting with the -request address. To
clarify, that post started out like this...
>First off, I'd like to be added to mailinglist I wasn't aware of, the
>Toyota-Mods list.
>
>How should this be done?
The poster, who shall remain anonymous in this email, chose to cross
post his remarks to several different groups, non of which, I believe,
he was a member of. Tom has sent this individual, at my request,
information on how to properly join Toyota-Mods, since he does seem to
have quite a bit of modification knowledge on the MR2.
Again, I apologize to Darin, who handled his situation very well.
Chris
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From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 14:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Cc: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Subject: Re: Bentley Service Manuals
Joe writes:
>Has anybody out there used one of these?
Yes, in fact you've probably got the same title I picked up for practically
nothing 8 years ago at a Toyota Dealership.
>I guess my question is are they accurate? This seems almost too good
>to be true.
No, its simply the result of Bentley's close working relationship with Toyata
motorcars and the desire to produce a quality product. The majority of the
photos used in the Bentley manual orginated from the Toyota publications.
With regards to content, my factory manuals and Bentleys go side by side when
I work on my Celica. The Bentley manual is actually more user friendly and
up to now has been nuts on accurate both in procedures and specs. You've made
a great purchase if you ask be.
Clark
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From: lung@san-jose.ate.slb.com
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 14:50:32 PDT
To: lantera@csos.orst.edu
Subject: Re: Bentley Service Manuals
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
[bentley manual]
Is it the brown one? Yes, the schematics are detailed, but not presented
as well as the factory manual though...I usually follow the factory
schematics since they easier to read. $7.50 is a good deal though. I paid
almost $30 for mine.
aaron
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From: nakayt@rpi.edu
Subject: request to joining
To: toyota-request@quack.kfu.com
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 19:05:52 -0500 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Hi
My name is Ted Nakayama.
I own 1985 Corolla GT-S and I enjoy driving it very much.
I'm also into autocross and planning to modify few things.
I am thinking of getting stiffer springs, however I drive them all year around.
volkswagen coradowould be my ideal suspension, stiff, not too much roll but,smooth ride.
I would like to get suggestions. Thanks
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 19:15:54 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: MR-2 Mo Pow-A !
From: jlm@mailhost.imageman.com (Joseph L. Meier)
Subject: More power for MR2 please answer again!
>I asked for information on increasing the HP and Torque on my 85 MR2
>Someone answered me once from a place that does special mods and stuff.
>I wish you would send me how to contact you again... I lost your message
>when the harddrive crashed at my internet connection.
I ponder if >I< was the one.. ha ha ha ...
>If anyone else can help me get 180+hp out of my 85 Toyota MR2 without
>costing an arm and a leg, I'd really appreciate it!
N-E way.. the 1985 MR-2 has a speed limiter also. The best bet for him
is to look into an engine transplant.
Cam Timing gears for the 4AGE is only $80 for two. That helps a bit also.
150hp is kinna a loose term. So like cam shafts would be his best bet and
also easy to install but thats about $800 and also with the cam timing
gears it should get him to that point.
>Thanks
>Email me at : jlm@imageman.com
-Allen T "Koji" Kam
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
| Allen T "Koji" Kam tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu |
| Life Life... koji@io.satlab.hawaii.edu |
| Taste Death... koji%interact.uucp@netcom.com |
| Speed is Pure !!!!! |
| Don't let up till you see RED !! 1980 Toyota Trueno SR-5 Sports Coupe |
| Advan Racing / HKS / MSD / SSR / Toyota Racing Development / Yokohama Tires |
| V-8's are a Blast...but i kinna gotta have to save GAS !!! |
| How SERIOUS do YOU wanna GET ??!?!?!! Sum times ya GADA pay the Price.... |
| Love is the only ting dat has 2 be earned... |
| Eberry ting else can be hacked ! - Reflex the Kismet Thief of Hearts |
| Setting the Standards..... -Benchmark Racing |
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 19:22:58 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: New Members / Corolla All-Trac
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 15:32:30 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Subject: New member!
>Welcome to the group Jon Kemnitz. Jon's restoration effort should prove
>to be quite interesting, especially for our token list Celica All-Trac
>owner. (Hey, Wayne, now ya got a friend!). Welcome aboard, Jon.
Wow... We not considered "friends" -sniff sniff-
>>>>>Jon Kemnitz<<<<<
>Name: Jon Kemnitz
>Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
>Car: 1991 Corolla All-Trac
Woah.... Errr... Corolla ;)
>Engine: 4A-FE
>Mods: Totalled in frontal collision by previous owner
Can you expand on the damage that occured ? I know of a similar person
that had a similar incident.
>Expected future mods: Return to near-original condition and possibly
>add to instrumentation. Basically do not plan to modify it.
Stock is kewl =)
>E-mail: kemn0005@gold.tc.umn.edu
>>>>><<<<<
-Koji
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 19:33:30 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: TRD Catalog
Heh.... JUS FYI...
I was looking at a TRD Cataloge the other night at my friends house
(Ya.... i don't of all peeples don't have one ha ha ha )
N-E Ways... in the suspension section..they have a nice picture
of the shocks available from TRD...
Can you guess which one is the Japan Only Adjustable height shock ? =)
Its in there... call TRD USA and request that shock ;)
It basically or how it works is that you are able to "turn" the shock casing
around and it raises and lowers the cars height...
Puurrfect for Circle track racing etc etc... and the
high pressures are REALLY high... so you are able to lift the front end off
your car when under full acelleration..its that stiff =)
Ha ha ha ... sowwy...
jus wanted to share...
-Me..
-Allen T "Koji" Kam
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
| Allen T "Koji" Kam tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu |
| Life Life... koji@io.satlab.hawaii.edu |
| Taste Death... koji%interact.uucp@netcom.com |
| Speed is Pure !!!!! |
| Don't let up till you see RED !! 1980 Toyota Trueno SR-5 Sports Coupe |
| Advan Racing / HKS / MSD / SSR / Toyota Racing Development / Yokohama Tires |
| V-8's are a Blast...but i kinna gotta have to save GAS !!! |
| How SERIOUS do YOU wanna GET ??!?!?!! Sum times ya GADA pay the Price.... |
| Love is the only ting dat has 2 be earned... |
| Eberry ting else can be hacked ! - Reflex the Kismet Thief of Hearts |
| Setting the Standards..... -Benchmark Racing |
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 19:34:33 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: TRD Catalog Take ][
Heh... also just noticed that in the engine section... that the car with
the 2TG motor is a Starlet...
Wait nebbermind... those with the Toyota Performance Handbook should
see it already in there...
Errr... nebbermind... =)
-Koji
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 19:43:05 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: TRD Catalogue take III
Ha ha ha sowwwy...
but my Friend Matt and I were amused about this...
In the TRD Catalogue Check the 1978 looking Celica from Cali...
It has an " Autosport Hawaii" License Plate Frame...
Thats the shop I goto...
Do I have Braggin Rights ?
Me and Localboy up there were there...Were you =)
Jus Kiddin..
-Koji
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 19:53:30 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: EGR Valve and Humour
Since this pertains to unanswered questions about EGR etc...
Quoted direct from the TRD Catalogue i've been baggin on.. ha ha ...
EGR Modification: The Exhaust Gas Recirculation Valve does just what
the name implies: It dirverts some exhaust gaes back into the intake system
at low engine speeds. This lowereds combustion temperature to reduce
NOx levels. It also reduces throttle response and bottom-end power.
(then it goes on to tell how to do it wow... this catalog is something
that has a lot of info in it -grin- )
BTW a "sheet metal" plate can also be used in some cases for the EGR
valvue but I personally think the "bb-shot" method is better as it
can be easily removed within seconds then minutes and it looks still
hooked up =)
OH... I LOVE the comments peeples been adding about "Daily" rituals in
your backyard "brokeanchics"....
Adds a smile to my mail reading =)
-Koji
P.S. Maybe das why I have 3 motors for my car and 3 sets of rims.
One motor for Race, one for everyday driving and one for fussing around.
One set of tires for street, one for racing, one for drifting...
P.P.S. Scratch that.... Racing / Spirited Street Driving is the same isnt ?!?!
P.P.P.S Metal Fatigue I know about ! I've gone through 3 headers and 5 welding
trips !
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 08:56:22 -0700
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: TRD Catalogue take III
On Apr 19, 7:43pm, tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu wrote:
> Subject: TRD Catalogue take III
> In the TRD Catalogue Check the 1978 looking Celica from Cali...
> It has an " Autosport Hawaii" License Plate Frame...
Cool, Way cool... But Autosport in no longer in the aftermarket
business are they?
> Thats the shop I goto...
Hey, you weren't the only one...
> Do I have Braggin Rights ?
Maybe I do shince I am up here.
> Me and Localboy up there were there...Were you =)
Hey, was my handsome self in the picture *hahahaha*
Latas,
Botoboy
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 14:04:02 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Contact with Toyota...
Quite some time back I had mentioned that I sent a rather inquisitive
email to Toyota-Japan trying to find out if they had anybody there who
might be interested in joining our group. I figured that having
somebody that close to the factory involved in our organization could
only be good. A few weeks later, a very confused Ellen Patrick from
Toyota-USA called and asked me many questions, starting with "what is an
internet?" Obviously, I had a lot of explaining to do.
Anyway, that was about 6 months ago. For those of you who remember this
thread, I mentioned that it takes a big company a long time to respond.
Well, they are starting to respond now. I contacted Ellen again today
(after some much-needed coaxing from Phillip Dang...Thanks!) and guess
what? Toyota is getting their own group on Prodigy. Evidently, based
on the bug that yours truly placed in their ear about them being able to
create a coup in automobile customer relations, they decided to test the
water at Prodigy. Cool, eh? What thanks did I get? Not only did they
forget to let me know what they were doing, they didn't even ask for my
address to deliver the brand new 1994 twin turbo Supra! Oh well, such
is life.
Anyway, I did make Ellen promise to have the person in charge of getting
this computer customer relations thing going give me a call, so we may
get our own personal Toyota representative yet. Additionally, she gave
me the number for Toyota Motorsports (or did we already have that) and
as soon as I hear from this customer relations person, I'm going to try
to get a contact at Toyota Motorsports for the group. (Then, I'm going
to try to convince them to sponsor me in the 1995 Daytona Dash 4
cylinder race....Then I'm going to fly to the moon...yeah, that's the
ticket!)
Sorry for the rambling. Just wanted to keep folks up to date (and thank
Phillip for staying after me!)
Chris
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From: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 19:10:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 4AGE Mods
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Let me thank you for all the response and they are very useful. I just
finished my first mods and here are the results.
1. Relace the stock air filter to a K&N one
There is more low rpm power and faster acceleration.
2. Replace the stock muffler to a Walker Super Turbo
Same as no.1 except a little bit louder than before but sound good.
3. Delete catalytic converter(I put it back now.
Much more power and the different is significant. But after I put on the
test pipe, the noise is terrible. Somebody suggest me to put some header
tape on it, still no luck. Most of the noise come right below me. I suspect
that there may have a leakage between the custom pipe and the test pipe.
After I put back the converter, the noise level lower around 6-10dB.
4. Disable EGR valve
Same as no.1 and better throttle response.
5. Putting Aluminium foil and heat resistance material around fuel line
Not much different but the car seem to run smoother.
6. Putting header tape to the header
The engine run a bit quiet than before. I don't feel any performance
different.
I did all the modifications around $200 and I am having fun now. At first I
also plan to change the suspension but that is out of my budget. I think I
should save money for the Valentine.
Cheers,
Simon :)
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From: drhamilt@acs.ucalgary.ca
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 18:09:15 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: K&N (again), etc...
To: SSOONG@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Cc: Toyota Mods Mailing List
Simon,
Just read about your mods, and had a few Q's:
1. What type of K&N filter did you use? (i.e., stock-square, cylindrical)
2. Where did you run your pipe? put your muffler?
I want to put a performance muffler in, and use as little pipe as
possible. I've seen MkI MR2's with the pipe coming out the middle of the
rear valence to make the pipe straight, but that involves cutting the
valence (not something I want to do). Did you do this, or put the
muffler in the stock position, or ???
3. When you diasabled the EGR (plugged the hose?), did you also take the
belt off of the air pump? Is this a good idea?
Tanx...
PS: 'Scuze the lack of quoting (I accidentally deleted the original message).
...Darin
(. )(. )
------------------------------------###--\/\/\/\/--###-------
Darin Ray Hamilton
Faculty of Management, University of Calgary, Alberta, CANADA
e-mail: drhamilt@acs.ucalgary.ca
-------------------------------------------------------------
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From: fergusos@jeff-lab.queensu.ca
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 20:48:33 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: seam welding?
I've heard a lot of rally drivers talking about seam welding their
cars to prepare them for performance class rally. I assume this means
running a continuous bead of weld where there was originally just spot
welds at the body panel joints. Does this significantly increase
the torsional stiffness of the car? If so, it seems like it would be
a nifty mod (maybe save it for when you have the engine pulled etc., or
when you're in the middle of a thorough repaint).
And how's this for an irritating problem: alernator resonance. From
3500-3700 revs my alternator goes into resonance. It took me forever to
figure out where the moaning was coming from. Then I finally watched the
alternator as I blipped the throttle cable, and sure enough it becomes
a blurry mess at those revs. Frustrating, as it is a new alternator.
Could the bearings be bad? All the bolts are tight. Argggg.
Stephen
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: Re: Plugs and EGR ($6 Pt ?!?)
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 12:02:57 +0800 (WST)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
>
> One other point of trivia on this subject is that in serious racing,
> they replace the plugs about every time the engine is run. When I was
> at Daytona watching them practice, they'd run 3 full laps, come in, pull
> the plugs, inspect them under a mic glass, toss them (no matter what
> condition they were in) and put in a new set.
Yup. Sure seen this too.
> I think that any serious TM member should pull their plugs each night,
> test them, and install a new pair for the next day of driving to work.
> Especially if they use the $6 each platinums and such.
$6 each for Pt plugs?? Was the overstated or do the (say) Bosch Pt plugs
cost that kind of $$$ where you are? Bosch Pt costs US$2.00 where I am.
Dunno about the NGK Pt plugs though.
bentan
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 19:21:35 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Plug Humour and Query
>From btptan@solomon.technet.sg Wed Apr 20 18:04:29 1994
From: "Benjamin T.P. Tan"
Subject: Re: Plugs and EGR ($6 Pt ?!?)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 12:02:57 +0800 (WST)
>> I think that any serious TM member should pull their plugs each night,
>> test them, and install a new pair for the next day of driving to work.
>> Especially if they use the $6 each platinums and such.
>$6 each for Pt plugs?? Was the overstated or do the (say) Bosch Pt plugs
>cost that kind of $$$ where you are? Bosch Pt costs US$2.00 where I am.
>Dunno about the NGK Pt plugs though.
NGK Platinum Plugs $3.75 each.
Nippondenso Platinum plugs $12 each... go figure...
Check the price for the "HKS" Power Plugs... $30 each =)
>bentan
Koji
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: Re: 4AGE mods (Re:"header tape"? Huh?)
To: kbento@vnet.ibm.com
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 14:59:31 +0800 (WST)
Cc: TOYOTA-MODS@su102a.ess.harris.com
> My VW was very loud after the mod so I took "header tape" and wrapped it
> around the headers and the baffle pipe (the test pipe in your case) and
> it quieted it down a bunch. Still sounded good, though.
Err.. Pardon me, but what's header tape?
bentan
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: Re: Plugs and EGR
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 15:21:47 +0800 (WST)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
> > This has degerated way too far. I'm disappointed in all of you.
> > You're not taking any of this nightly mechanics seriously.
> > Personally, I swap exhaust headers nightly, so I can compare metal
> > fatigue on each cylinder to check exhaust temperatures. The onboard
> > exhaust temp meter doesn't really do cumulative statistics
> accurately.
> > Also, I adjust the shims on the rear LSD, and repack all the wheel
> > bearings.
>
> Here Here! (or is it Hear Hear!...my olde English ain't so good.)
Hear Here!
And don't forget to analyze your oil too..
bentan
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 09:07:08 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New Member
Hey, gang, looks like we really have a serious Mod'er here. Welcome
Mark Sink to the group. Mark is currently trying to turn 200 ponies out
of his 4AGE engine. Any ideas?
>>>>>Mark Sink<<<<<
Name : Mark Sink
Location : Raleigh, NC
Model : 1987 MR2
Engine : 4AGE
email : msink@aisg.com
current mods: Kaminari air dam, BOSCH driving lights, HELLA
Headlights, Repco Metal Master brake pads, Yokohama Tires, Redline
MTL, ANSA exhaust, open element K&N Filter Charger, HKS Light-weight
flywheel, HKS clutch, TRD suspension mods, Eibach springs, KYB
struts, TRD Anti-sway bars.
Future mods: 16" wheels 205/45 16" tires. Racing seats possibly Recaro
SRDs, 4 point harness, Fittti E3 steering wheel, MOMO shift knob, Razzo
pedals etc....
Right now, I am working on getting a major boost in HP. I contacted
several people, none of whom replied back. I'm looking for 200+ HP. I
have looked at a completely rebuilt Hi-Po N/A 4AGE Engine with 152HP at
1587cc. Bored and stroked I was told would bring close to 200 HP. I
would guess 175-185 is more realistic. Would have bought an HKS turbo
system, but they no longer make it.
I am now in the process of getting in touch with the Toystore in
Gardena CA for a possible turbo kit using a Garrett T3 turbo. They
requested that I send them exactly what I am looking for, and I am
doing that now.
My interests in mods for MR2's are deep! Maybe someone here can help me
find info I need on engine specs. I have two software programs dealing
with performance. Engine Analyzer, and Performance Analyzer. Engine
Analyzer allows one to create/modify and engine, and calculate
HP/Torque curves, and MANY more things. The problem is, it requires
input of data I do not know. Performance Analyzer may be of help to
your members. This program deala with the car as a whole. Taking in
data about the car, and calculating performance, or even calculating
HP/Torque curves based on timed acceleration tests in a particular
gear. It will also accept a power curve as data, giving back accurate
performance specs 1/4 mile, top speed, and so on. I also happen to
have a DYNO tested power curve for the 4AGE, and HKS Stage III turbo.
Combine this with gear ratios, and one can calculate optimum shifting
points for maximum acceleration if anyone is interested.
I am also a member of the regular Toyota list, and the MR2-interest
list.
My biggest hobby is actually driving, and am getting the car ready for a
weekend at the track. A school called Car Guys seems to be a good deal.
Thanks
Mark Sink
>>>>><<<<<
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 09:36:41 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: trans oil for '81 Corolla
Does anyone know of a really good trans oil for an '81 Corolla? I
tried some Amalie multi-viscosity, but it's harder to shift now and
whines a bit in 5th. Any ideas?
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Cc: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Subject: Re: trans oil for '81 Corolla
John,
What about SWEPCO?? I agree its pricey, but I run it in my 944 and am
pleased (I don't autocross though). I think SWEPCO would be overkill in my
Celica. I've used Sta-Lube stuff in that car for 16 years and its worked just
fine.
Clark
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From: aml2@ukc.ac.uk
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: 1978 Celica 2000GT (18RG) Mods
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 18:40:15 +0100
I posted similar questions a few months ago, but they didnt seem
to get through, so here goes again...
Does anybody out there know if there are any good performance
brake upgrades for the 1978-82 Celicas? Im interested in getting
hold of some decent discs for the front of my car, as they are
not quite up to stopping my 18RG. Really im after some vented and
grooved discs, but i havent seen any at all for the older celicas.
Alternatively does anybody have an idea, whether the struts, discs and
calipers, could be transfered from an RA62 type chassis to my RA40?
That would at least give me vented discs.
Lastly.. I got hold of a BRAND NEW 18RG engine here in London, UK and
fitted it just a few problems (different header and sump) to my RA40,
apparently it was built for a RA63 chassis, (according my local Toyota
dealer),
but does anybody have one of these chassis, as im wondering if the engine
was tuned any different in this model.
PS. Has anybody any info on a Turbo conversion for this engine? I have seen
a home made one, but id prefer a kit if anybody makes one. :)
Andy
1978 Celica 2000GT
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From: lantera@csos.orst.edu
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 11:56:37 -0700
To: aml2@ukc.ac.uk, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: 1978 Celica 2000GT (18RG) Mods
In the US the 1982+ Celicas have front vented discs, and drums or disks
(depends upon model) in the rear. If you wanted to bad enough you
could probably swap some over. Anybody else know how hard this would be?
Woodsprite
*******************************************************************************
** * 1983 Celica ST * Joe Woodsprite ***
** Looking for Julie, * * Unsafe at any speed ***
** Whereever I go. * I don't drive * ***
** --- * fast. * lantera@kira.csos.orst.edu ***
** I'll do what it * I fly low. * lanteran@xanth.cs.orst.edu ***
** takes to find her. * * ***
** * 72 Honda CB350 * ***
*******************************************************************************
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From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 15:22:50 -0700 (PDT)
To: c.pugsley@trl.oz.au
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Gasoline smell in back seat..
Craig,
Can't say I've had any direct experience with your problem, but seems to me
you're going to have to do more then flush the effected parts/areas with hot
water. Try some diluted laundry detergent or possibly some form of spray
on kitchen cleanser. You may be faced with having to disassemble the seat since
the cushion is probably open cell foam, ie a sponge, that soaked up the
gasoline. This may be extermely difficult to effectively clean. Soaking it in
a water/detergent filled sink or bathtub may be required. I'm basing this
recommendation based on the fact that I've been able to get the smell of
gasoline out of my work clothes by washing them in standard laundry detergent.
The dryer hasn't exploded yet! :)
Good Luck Clark
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: Subscribe (rcpt) (argh!)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (mods)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 10:48:36 +0800 (WST)
Forwarded message:
> From eqq3696d@desc.dla.mil Thu Apr 21 23:30:36 1994
> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 10:59:31 -0400
> From: eqq3696d@desc.dla.mil (Michael N. Hoten)
> Message-Id: <9404211459.AA20935@desc.dla.mil>
> X-Mailer: EZ-Mail v4.0
> Return-Receipt-To: eqq3696d@desc.dla.mil
> Classification: Registered
> To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
> Subject: Subscribe (rcpt)
>
> Please subscribe.
>
> thanks
>
> Michael Hoten
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eqq3696d sends (Michael Hoten)...
Should we send an email bomb to anyone else who does this? I mean, we each
send one ... :-) closest thing to a (net)cane I can think of.. :-)
bentan
P.S. yes, most S'poreans are vindicative... :-)
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From: k124476@ee.tut.fi
Subject: tires...
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota-mods mailing list)
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 16:45:26 EET DST
Looks like I'm going to get a set of 15"*7" alloys next week...
for about $450 a set (new). Next I need tires, so should I:
1) put the same size tires all around (185/60)
2) put slightly wider tires to the rear (185/55 or /60 vs 205/55 or /60),
as it seems that 185 is the widest that will fit in the front
without some metalwork...
Opinions?
--
Matti Kalalahti | Toyota Carina Coupe GT-T TwinCam Turbo
k124476@ee.tut.fi | RWD * IRS * 3T-GTEU * 166+hp * ~234Nm * '82
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 09:14:24 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: New Member
Another New member....Michael Hoten.
>>>>>Michael Hoten<<<<<
My name is Michael Hoten and I live in Dayton, Ohio.
I have 2 '87 MR2s, both of which are stock (4AGE) engines.
One does have T-Tops, and a rear spoiler, the other does not.
My e-mail address is: eqq3696d@desc.dla.mil
>>>>><<<<<
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 11:47:48 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: tires...
> Looks like I'm going to get a set of 15"*7" alloys next week...
> for about $450 a set (new). Next I need tires, so should I:
>
> 1) put the same size tires all around (185/60)
>
> 2) put slightly wider tires to the rear (185/55 or /60 vs 205/55 or
/60),
> as it seems that 185 is the widest that will fit in the front
> without some metalwork...
>
> Opinions?
Cut those fenders out and install a flare kit! Go for it! And go to a
215/50 or a 235/45 all the way around! What is it that Koji sez?
"Sometimes, ya gadda pay the price!"
Chris
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From: drhamilt@acs.ucalgary.ca
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 12:23:35 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: tires...
To: Kalalahti Matti
Cc: Toyota-mods mailing list
On Fri, 22 Apr 1994, Kalalahti Matti wrote:
> Looks like I'm going to get a set of 15"*7" alloys next week...
> for about $450 a set (new). Next I need tires, so should I:
>
> 1) put the same size tires all around (185/60)
>
> 2) put slightly wider tires to the rear (185/55 or /60 vs 205/55 or /60),
> as it seems that 185 is the widest that will fit in the front
> without some metalwork...
I went from 185/60-14 to 195/50-15 (all around) on my '86 MR2.
Fit's fine, and handles great!
...Darin
(. )(. )
------------------------------------###--\/\/\/\/--###-------
Darin Ray Hamilton
Faculty of Management, University of Calgary, Alberta, CANADA
e-mail: drhamilt@acs.ucalgary.ca
-------------------------------------------------------------
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 14:28:43 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Tires Selection in 15"
>From cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com Fri Apr 22 05:48:16 1994
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 11:47:48 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Subject: Re: tires...
>> Looks like I'm going to get a set of 15"*7" alloys next week...
>> for about $450 a set (new). Next I need tires, so should I:
>>
>> 1) put the same size tires all around (185/60)
>>
>> 2) put slightly wider tires to the rear (185/55 or /60 vs 205/55 or
/60),
>> as it seems that 185 is the widest that will fit in the front
>> without some metalwork...
>>
>> Opinions?
>Cut those fenders out and install a flare kit! Go for it! And go to a
>215/50 or a 235/45 all the way around! What is it that Koji sez?
>"Sometimes, ya gadda pay the price!"
Heh..but remeber he's going with 15" rims and there isnt that much of a
selection of rim types and espically for a Toyota.
Sendel,Turbo Racing, Hayashi, and Prime all have rims for 15 x 7 with the
proper offset. You can run 205/50's no problem and have to roll in the fenders
if you wanna run anything bigger just as long as you have strong shocks that
don't "blounce" all about the place. Make sure they are Stiff in other words.
15" tires are cheaper so why not go for some 50 series tires or lower ?
I would suggest at least 205's on a 7" rim otherwise just don't
parallel park or go too fast over any speed bumps !
thats just my own personal opinion.
>Chris
-Koji the Chrisworshipper
P.S. Also the flare kit for like the Celica's is like $45 a side so they are
worth it. Just buy the bead for the 4x4's or the "bug" type the rubber
stuff and install it with that and drill into your bodypanels after cutting
or rolling back the edges. It works...
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 14:31:51 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Celica Front Vented Disc Brakes...
Sorry who wanted this info and for what type car etc ?
Sorrry Mailer ate my mail...
-Koji
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From: btptan@solomon.technet.sg
Subject: HOWTO:Twin Carb Tuning / Balancing
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (mods)
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 11:08:02 +0800 (WST)
Well, got me under the hood of my Celica (TA40/2T-B) again and somehow
happen to have a thought strike me... *gosh* I was actually _thinking_. So I
look me at the twin carbs I've got stick'n out the left side of my 2T-B, and
take off the K&Ns to give'em a shower. With the filters off and some carb
cleaner down the throats of the carbs, I start to fiddle (not tune,
fiddle..) with the idle speed adjust of one of the carbs and that's when it
hits me. ok so I'm a little slow. I'm thinking, "Hey! We got adjustment
screws here for each carb.. how the heck do I make sure they're balanced?"
At which point I promptly stop fiddling, the images of a dragon boat race
with one side of a team rowing faster than the other, come to mind.
To cut a long story short, (not one of my better points) how do I balance
them two carbs?
bentan
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From: lantera@csos.orst.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 20:59:41 -0700
To: btptan@solomon.technet.sg, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: HOWTO:Twin Carb Tuning / Balancing
>To cut a long story short, (not one of my better points) how do I balance
>them two carbs?
I have yet to do this on a car, but on a motorcycle you pull out your
handy dandy carb synchronizer (or four) and away you go. The idea is
that these things measure the pull of air into the carb giving you a
vacume reading of that carb. Can be quite a pain if you have 4 carbs
and only one synchronizer. The ones I've seen for cars sit over the
carb's air intake and are essentially a fancy vacume gage. You should
be able to pick one up in your local auto parts store, if not there's
always JC Whitney (shudder).
Make sure it's adjusted, it makes a _BIG_ difference when you ride the
two wheel toy.
Woodsprite
*******************************************************************************
** * 1983 Celica ST * Joe Woodsprite ***
** Looking for Julie, * * Unsafe at any speed ***
** Whereever I go. * I don't drive * ***
** --- * fast. * lantera@kira.csos.orst.edu ***
** I'll do what it * I fly low. * lanteran@xanth.cs.orst.edu ***
** takes to find her. * * ***
** * 72 Honda CB350 * ***
*******************************************************************************
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 1994 01:06:18 -0700
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Tires Selection in 15"
On Apr 22, 2:28pm, tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu wrote:
> Subject: RE: Tires Selection in 15"
> -Koji the Chrisworshipper
>
> P.S. Also the flare kit for like the Celica's is like $45 a side so they are
> worth it. Just buy the bead for the 4x4's or the "bug" type the rubber
> stuff and install it with that and drill into your bodypanels after
> cutting or rolling back the edges. It works...
Oooooh, Nooooo... It's beginning to look like a mini-trucker
*hahahaha*.
Latas,
Botoboy
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 22:15:30 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Tires (Waste Bandwidth So Disreguard)
>> -Koji the Chrisworshipper
>>
>> P.S. Also the flare kit for like the Celica's is like $45 a side so they are
>> worth it. Just buy the bead for the 4x4's or the "bug" type the rubber
>> stuff and install it with that and drill into your bodypanels after
>> cutting or rolling back the edges. It works...
> Oooooh, Nooooo... It's beginning to look like a mini-trucker
>*hahahaha*.
No laugh Localbotoboy... I seen your GTS with the Chrome Fender Flairs
and those 15 x 10 rims with 195/50's with whitewalls stretched on them ! =)
>Latas,
>Botoboy
Actually the Mini Truckers got a good ideer... They at least have a low
center of gravity and all.. Good Balance and light weight. Just need
damm Anti-sway bars and adjustable lateral control rods and wo-la !
However.. even the "stock" just dropped trucks can corner well
cause they are "Slammed"
-Koji
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 94 17:47:29 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Endorsement 4 Good Clean Fun
I was working on my car and my little brothers car tuning it
Today and usual a little grease and oil got onto certain body parts.
I don't think we ever talked about this (Why would we) However I do
Feel its part of something of what everyone uses or should use or something.
That orange Citrus Cleaner works GREAT ! However... ya don't always have some
around when ya need it badly (trans jobs, alternator replacements, timing
belts/chains, sparkplug cleaning -note: every road trip i change mines!-)
I personally used like Finesse Shampoo for my hair when I got some
nice Transfluid in my hair. Works great on other body parts also.
(*Flashback of trans fluid in hair ewwwwwwwww*) (*shibber*)
Also Dawn also works as a general cleaner and the pump soap types.
Also a plug for my Brother and Network 21 / Amyway...
LOC works and so does the Dish drops. Just takes a lot more of it but it does
cut the grease feeling outof your skin but it remains "stained" =(
Soft Soap works well too.
I used to use Lava but stopped cause it hurt my "delicate" typing pads on my
finger tips =(
Sorry just felt like sharing... and Sharing... is errr.... A waste of bandwidth....... or something ......... ;)
-Koji
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From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 94 18:05:58 HST
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Carb Tuning 3 Min Jam Session from Koji
Koji's thoughts about tuning (3 mins jam typing session)
This is how I tune my dual 44 Mikuni carbs.
I get my trusty Snap-on black handled spaded screwdriver which is only
used for tuning carbs and my Redline Synchrometer. I used to use the
metal one but the metal one after it heats up it gives off false readings
so the plastic one from Redline I found to be ideal for me.
Hook up my "spare" tach and my "Sears" "Engine anazlizer" to monitor RPM
readings. Start my car. Make sure the fuel pump is on. Make sure the
fuel pump regulator is running at 3.5 psi (or was it 4.5 no 3.5 i tink).
Take off the linkage on the carbs. Disconnecting the "idle" rods.
Take readings from 1 and 3 and then 2 and 4 and adjust accordingly.
I adjust and "tune" by turning the screws to almost all the way in or
out depening on how they were and when i get "peak" rpm from the motor
I turn it 1/4 turn back and set it like that.
Check 1 and 3 , 2 and 4 make sure all at same levels. #4 will always be a
little higher then 2 and off reading since the "brake" pressure line comes
from that cylinder.
snap back on the idle rod linkage...
Rap the motor a few times...
thats it...
Offhand i'd say Mikunis stay tuned the longest and are most streetable.
Weber's deliver the most gas if ya wanna go the fastest but become "unscynched"
the fastest. Delarots are a "medium" and are cheap and come in big sizes for
reasonable. However I prefer Mikuni....
Side note... If you (and you should) run air filters tune your car a little
richer. If you take off your airfilters the car will run "richer" also.
(Redundant statement) The small stacks are used with air filters basically...
errr... if you have or not gonna run air filters then i suggest getting the
Mikuni stacks the REALLY BIG ones cause then you can defeat the need of a
synchro by tuning by hand (it really works)
Clean all that "red" junk (supposing you use super all the time) off from
your carbs cause they do oxydize ... (or mines do at least)
Errr...
Errr.. Das it for 3 mins...
I'm outta here... going out to Town....
See ya when I see ya !
Biyas !
-Koji
P.S. Yes I do run a tach inside of my engine compartment an 8000 rpm one and
my old fuel pressure gague so dual of both. I run "Autometer" for both cause
they were reasonable. I have my fuel liquid filled gagues in my car too.
They actually work...
more later...
Oh... for the fuel pressure gague... if ya don't wanna run the expensive steel
braided lines ya can always run copper tubing and just get all the "adaperts"
and pipe fittings... cost ya about $10 for enough for about 5 cars when
or compared to just one 10ft line ya gonna need for your gague the steel braided ones...
However I should not comment as i have some 50 feet of steel braided hose in my car designated for the fuel system gack...
Outta hea...
-Koji again...
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From: k124476@ee.tut.fi
Subject: RE: Tires Selection in 15"
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 18:18:38 EET DST
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota-mods mailing list)
> >> 1) put the same size tires all around (185/60)
> >>
> >> 2) put slightly wider tires to the rear (185/55 or /60 vs 205/55 or
> /60),
> >> as it seems that 185 is the widest that will fit in the front
> >> without some metalwork...
> >>
> >> Opinions?
>
> >Cut those fenders out and install a flare kit! Go for it! And go to a
> >215/50 or a 235/45 all the way around! What is it that Koji sez?
Sure, I was about to do that just after I get the 8.0 V12 twin-turbo
under the hood ;)
> >"Sometimes, ya gadda pay the price!"
So far, I've always had to...
Seriously, is it worth it to put wider tires to the back?
How about profile? I DON'T want any more understeer, thank you...
> Heh..but remeber he's going with 15" rims and there isnt that much of a
> selection of rim types and espically for a Toyota.
And nobody can get me a new set before June! Unless I can used ones,
I'll have to put up with 14" tires :(, can't wait much longer.
> Sendel,Turbo Racing, Hayashi, and Prime all have rims for 15 x 7 with the
> proper offset. You can run 205/50's no problem and have to roll in the fenders
> if you wanna run anything bigger just as long as you have strong shocks that
> don't "blounce" all about the place. Make sure they are Stiff in other words.
Heh... how did you guess ;) There was no trouble to push the front
(by bare hands) low enough to get the top of the tires at the same
level as fenders. Rear, on the other hand, is almost rock solid...
I think I'll go for Koni's in the front ($270 a pair) and some stiffer
springs.
> 15" tires are cheaper so why not go for some 50 series tires or lower ?
Cheaper than what? I'd have a big trouble finding any 45 or lower
tires, and if I found any, I could only afford 1 or 2...
Even good 195/60R15 will cost $140 a piece.
And I doubt that I want to go any wider than 205 (215 tops) anyway.
> I would suggest at least 205's on a 7" rim otherwise just don't
> parallel park or go too fast over any speed bumps !
> thats just my own personal opinion.
What's the thing with the bumps? Please enlighten...
BTW, my winter (and now my only) tires are 175/70R14 on 7" rims,
genuine Hankook's ;)
> P.S. Also the flare kit for like the Celica's is like $45 a side so they are
> worth it. Just buy the bead for the 4x4's or the "bug" type the rubber
> stuff and install it with that and drill into your bodypanels after cutting
> or rolling back the edges. It works...
Well, I may have to do that.
--
Matti Kalalahti | Toyota Carina Coupe GT-T TwinCam Turbo
k124476@ee.tut.fi | RWD * IRS * 3T-GTEU * 166+hp * ~234Nm * '82
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 09:36:31 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Racing results
Well (*yawn*) another boring old win at the circle track! Tim started
my car at back of a 35 car pack (last weeks winner always starts last
:-() and took it to a fairly uneventful finish. Money race, though--I
won $75! Being the overly magnanimous owner I am, I gave Tim his 25%,
plus a 15% bonus. Gotta keep the driver happy (See the proverb that
says don't muzzle the ox that treads the corn.)
And, being the lazy owner/crew chief I am, the only thing that got done
was to put the new faux-battery in the engine compartment. Faux =
empty, no lead, no acid, better weight transfer but looks legal (heh
heh!) We're gonna take a weekend off, so we have two weeks to play with
things. The goal is to get the car painted by the next race (yeah,
right!)
Also, we're probably gonna move to the next class up called "Enduro".
This is very similar, except for 3 things:
1.) The only race once a month.
2.) You can "gut" the car. (no seats, carpet, headliner, etc.
3.) These are fairly big money races (Winner gets $250-$400,
depending on the number of entries.)
Also, they race one month at the track I race at, and one month at the
track north of us. The trick of the other track is that they run 25
laps left-turn, then shoot throught the infield and run the other 25
laps right-turn! I don't know how to make a car turn right! ;-) It
should be interesting! I'm thinking about putting some kind of dynamic
weight-jacks into the car that will allow Tim to do a weight transfer
change mid-race!
Chris
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From: garyh@sco.com
To: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com, tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu,
Subject: Re: Tires Selection in 15"
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 12:45:21 PDT
>On Apr 22, 2:28pm, tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu wrote:
>> Subject: RE: Tires Selection in 15"
>
>> -Koji the Chrisworshipper
>>
>> P.S. Also the flare kit for like the Celica's is like $45 a side so they are
>> worth it. Just buy the bead for the 4x4's or the "bug" type the rubber
>> stuff and install it with that and drill into your bodypanels after
>> cutting or rolling back the edges. It works...
>
> Oooooh, Nooooo... It's beginning to look like a mini-trucker
>*hahahaha*.
I have a fiberglass flare kit for my Celica GT (GT-S has flares). Looks
good, but I'm fraid that through time, the flares my warp so I try not
to park the Celica in direct sun.
Gary
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 16:18:13 EDT
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Carb Tuning 3 Min Jam Session from Koji
> Delarots are a "medium" and are cheap and come in big sizes for
> reasonable. However I prefer Mikuni....
By "Delarots" I assume you mean "DellOrto's", which I have and I quite
agree that they are a "medium". Medium cost, medium power, medium for
staying in adjustment, but absolutely a "fair weather carb" - if the outside
air temperature changes by as much as 10 degrees F, I have to tune up the
carbs again...
The top builders seem to like Mikuni's too...
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 01:31:55 -0700
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Tires (Waste Bandwidth So Disreguard)
On Apr 22, 10:15pm, tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu wrote:
> Subject: RE: Tires (Waste Bandwidth So Disreguard)
> No laugh Localbotoboy... I seen your GTS with the Chrome Fender Flairs
> and those 15 x 10 rims with 195/50's with whitewalls stretched on them ! =)
Noooooo, that's blasphemous... I can't look. Hey do I look manong to
you, maybe with a tan I would *hahaha*. Hmmmm, gotta change the looks on the
GT-S before I come back home. Any suggestions Koji-san. Does K&M Racing still
carry Toyota Sprint driving lights with factory switch and mounting hardware.
How about one piece bumpers too *grin*.
Anyone else who has suggestions for good (functional) driving lights
other than Toyota factory mounts.
Just got the Eibach springs installed with Tokico Illuminas on all four
corners. My baby brother mentioned that he likes the adjustability but does
miss the stiffness and the lack of body roll of the straight rate TRD blue
springs with TRD shocks. Gosh, I still have spare parts for another Corolla
now... Hmmmm, anyone with a 85-87 Corolla GT-S they want to get rid of *grin*.
Chris, I am still looking around. The last few GT-S owners wanted too
much for what they had... and not only that, I was also looking for a liftback
too.
> Actually the Mini Truckers got a good ideer... They at least have a low
> center of gravity and all.. Good Balance and light weight. Just need
> damm Anti-sway bars and adjustable lateral control rods and wo-la !
But done in bad taste *hahahaha*. It's the hydraulic beds that work
like a dumptruck but is unable to haul things... kinda irks my mind. No form
with function clause. I could hear them now... it's better to look good :^).
> However.. even the "stock" just dropped trucks can corner well
> cause they are "Slammed"
There was a category awhile back in SCCA that included mini-trucks. I
wonder if there are now defunct?
Latas,
Botoboy
Silicon Graphics Inc.
Mountain View, CA
allanc@sgi.com
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 01:49:33 -0700
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Endorsement 4 Good Clean Fun
On Apr 23, 5:47pm, tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu wrote:
> Subject: Endorsement 4 Good Clean Fun
> That orange Citrus Cleaner works GREAT ! However... ya don't always have some
> around when ya need it badly (trans jobs, alternator replacements, timing
> belts/chains, sparkplug cleaning -note: every road trip i change mines!-)
Hey, that's ripping off stuff that bicyclist use *hahahaha*. It works
great but never spill it in bulk... Bad experience at a Bike Shop I worked at.
Smells great but *gag* it kills in quantity.
> (*Flashback of trans fluid in hair ewwwwwwwww*) (*shibber*)
Try gear-oil, it's smell better... NOT!!! Moral: Never be the guys
supporting the tail shaft of a transmission... without a endplug. And learn to
hold your breath pretty long *hahaha*.
> LOC works and so does the Dish drops. Just takes a lot more of it but it does
> cut the grease feeling outof your skin but it remains "stained" =(
MAC tools used to make a lemony lanolin based cleanser with pumice.
That used to work very well.
> Soft Soap works well too.
> I used to use Lava but stopped cause it hurt my "delicate" typing pads on my
> finger tips =(
Try industrial strength Tide... it should "take off" those delicate
finger tips *hahaha*. Only soap I know that feels really warm on your skin
when you add water. Now, I am beginning to understand why I am this way... Too
much chemical experimentation *hahaha*. Was it weed, dope, coke,... No man it
was Tide *hahaha*.
Latas,
Botoboy
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 01:58:08 -0700
To: Gary H , tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu,
Subject: Re: Tires Selection in 15"
On Apr 25, 12:45pm, Gary H wrote:
> Subject: Re: Tires Selection in 15"
> I have a fiberglass flare kit for my Celica GT (GT-S has flares). Looks
> good, but I'm fraid that through time, the flares my warp so I try not
> to park the Celica in direct sun.
Have you ever considered carbon-fiber *grin*.
Latas,
Botoboy
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From: msink@aisg.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 08:32:20 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: clutch for '87 MR2
OK guys, final call for your expert opinion. Subject: Clutch 20,000mi
ago, I bought an HKS flywheel, in doing so, I had to buy an '85 clutch
to fit it, so I got the HKS '85 clutch, which is slightly smaller than
the stock '87 clutch. 200mm v/s 210mm I believe. I need to order a new
one now. Future plans are for 200+ HP. The HKS flywheel supposedly
gets eaten up by Centerforce DF or Metallic clucthes. Should I keep the
HKS flywheel and smaller clutch, getting a new Ferrodo disc, from TRD
or should I go back to my stock flywheel, and get a Centerforce DF or
Metallic? I want something that will last a long time, but if the car
gets its HP increase, I need something the will hold. Probably 180
ft/lbs and 200+ HP. I'm thinking it might be best to switch the
flywheel back to stock, and get the bigger Centerforce DF clutch.
Please help, I thought when I bought the HKS unit 1 1/2 years ago, I
wouldn't have to do this again.
Thanks
Mark Sink
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 09:01:45 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: clutch for '87 MR2
> OK guys, final call for your expert opinion. Subject: Clutch 20,000mi
> ago, I bought an HKS flywheel, in doing so, I had to buy an '85 clutch
> to fit it, so I got the HKS '85 clutch, which is slightly smaller than
> the stock '87 clutch. 200mm v/s 210mm I believe. I need to order a new
> one now. Future plans are for 200+ HP. The HKS flywheel supposedly
> gets eaten up by Centerforce DF or Metallic clucthes. Should I keep
the
> HKS flywheel and smaller clutch, getting a new Ferrodo disc, from TRD
> or should I go back to my stock flywheel, and get a Centerforce DF or
> Metallic? I want something that will last a long time, but if the car
> gets its HP increase, I need something the will hold. Probably 180
> ft/lbs and 200+ HP. I'm thinking it might be best to switch the
> flywheel back to stock, and get the bigger Centerforce DF clutch.
> Please help, I thought when I bought the HKS unit 1 1/2 years ago, I
> wouldn't have to do this again.
If you can get away with the smaller clutch/flywheel combo, do it.
First of all, when you add weight to your flywheel, you add to the
amount of torque needed to overcome angular momentum. Assuming the
smaller setup is lighter, this means a lot to how powerfully that 200 hp
engine behaves. A heavy flywheel/clutch combo is gonna steal power
bigtime. Hey, one of you physics gurus back me up here. John
Red-Horse, you know this stuff. What is the relationship between weight
and angular momentum.
Secondly, even if the two setups weighed the same, its the placement of
the weight that counts as much as the weight itself. I always use the
figure skater example. Remember that a figure skater can be spinning at
a slow rate, arms outstreched, and then by just pulling his/her
arms/legs/head closer to the axis of the rotation, they suddenly start
spinning incredibly faster. No energy is added to the system, it just
becomes easier to turn. Those extra 10 mm are affecting you adversely.
Of course, the big question is still whether or not the HKS/Ferrodo
combo will hold 200 HP. For that you'll need to ask RJ at TRD, or
possibly someone at HKS. However, for what HKS charges, I'd expect it
to hold 1000 hp and last as many years!
Chris
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From: jrredho@universe.digex.net
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 11:44:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: clutch for '87 MR2
To: Chris Myer
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
I think Chris is trying to wake me up :)
On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Chris Myer wrote:
> [snip]
> Hey, one of you physics gurus back me up here. John
> Red-Horse, you know this stuff. What is the relationship between weight
> and angular momentum.
(Flipping back to my rigid body dynamics notes---from 1983!): The sum of all
the moments (torques) on a body about any point is equal to the time rate of
change of angular momentum about that point. For this body (the flywheel),
assuming a fixed coordinate system and computing angular momentum about the
center of the flywheel (this is the center of mass), that would translate
into the inertia times the angular acceleration. So...finally getting to the
point, the inertia for a disk is mass*(radius squared)/2 and the relationship
of the applied torques to mass is linear.
Remember, though, that there is a trade off. By definition, inertia is a
measure of a body's tendency to resist change. So going to extremely
light flywheels might have bad side effects.
>
> Secondly, even if the two setups weighed the same, its the placement of
> the weight that counts as much as the weight itself. I always use the
> figure skater example. Remember that a figure skater can be spinning at
> a slow rate, arms outstreched, and then by just pulling his/her
> arms/legs/head closer to the axis of the rotation, they suddenly start
> spinning incredibly faster. No energy is added to the system, it just
> becomes easier to turn. Those extra 10 mm are affecting you adversely.
>
This is correct, since the inertia term is what matters---although here we
have to consider the time rate of change of the inertia term as well.
cheers from mr. pedantico :),
john
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From: goble@maxwell.ee.washington.edu
Subject: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com, supras@vicor.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 9:38:13 PDT
I don't think I ever posted about the second round of mods I made to
my '88 Supra Turbo. As some of you may recall, the first round of mods
included an HKS Turbo Exhaust and a K&N Filter-Charger. Remember, I also
got hooked on autoxing at the end of last season so every mod has to
be legal for stock class (I'm in B stock).
A few weeks ok I did the following:
New Tires - Yokohama A-008Rs
Front: 225/50 ZR 16
Rear: 245/45 ZR 16
New Shocks - Had to go with genuine stock replacements since I wanted
to continue using TEMS
Competition Alignment
I was also going to have stiffer bushings put on the front sway-bar but
he would have had to make a custom bushing because of their size so I
didn't have that done at that time.
The tires are incredible (especially compared to the no-name junk that
was on the car when I bought it). These are almost all rubber with very
little tread--I'm a little worried about driving in heavy rain...
especially since I live in Seattle!
I can feel a bit better performance from the new shocks...the old ones
were originals and the car has almost 80k miles on it.
The new alignment really makes the car feel peppy and more responsive.
You get much more feedback through the wheel but you also have to
pay more attention since small ruts, etc in the road have more of an
effect now.
Anyway, this past Saturday I attended an autox school for novices. You
may recall that I did two autox events (solo II) at the end of last
season. The school had about 32 people and was very helpful once we
finally got to driving with an instructor. I ran the fastest time!
The next day, I raced in the real thing (first one this year for me) and
instead of racing novice, I raced in BS. I ran 3 clean runs and was
about 2.5 seconds behind the leader...compare that with ~10 seconds
behind the leader at the previous events.
The biggest problem I'm having with the handling of the car is
understeer. Occasionally the rear would come loose but, so far, I
haven't had a problem getting it back under control (it's alway
been real minor).
With the understeer, I'll come into a hard turn and the front will
start sliding (this is a real hard turn, at speed). What I was doing
was just turning a little more (increasing slip angle?) and waiting
for the front to come around...and not being on the gas or the brake.
This always worked well enough to keep me on the course but looking
back it seems kinda slow. Should I have applied a touch of brake to
get more wait over the front tires? Is there anything else I can do
to reduce understeer. For example, if understeer is a problem, does
that mean I DO NOT want a stiffer front sway bar?
At any rate, the Supra did really well (as did I). I probably won't
be doing any other major mods so it's up to me to improve my driving
now.
Oh yeah, the MR2 Turbo is the car that one B stock (it typically does).
I believe an RX-7 Turbo II took second.
-Brian ('88 Supra Turbo, B Stock)
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
To: goble@maxwell.ee.washington.edu (Brian Goble)
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 13:52:35 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML),
> The biggest problem I'm having with the handling of the car is
> understeer. Occasionally the rear would come loose but, so far, I
> haven't had a problem getting it back under control (it's alway
> been real minor).
>
> With the understeer, I'll come into a hard turn and the front will
> start sliding (this is a real hard turn, at speed). What I was doing
> was just turning a little more (increasing slip angle?) and waiting
> for the front to come around...and not being on the gas or the brake.
> This always worked well enough to keep me on the course but looking
> back it seems kinda slow. Should I have applied a touch of brake to
> get more wait over the front tires? Is there anything else I can do
> to reduce understeer. For example, if understeer is a problem, does
> that mean I DO NOT want a stiffer front sway bar?
I'm not an expert, but... :)
How about going into the turn faster, then leaning on the brakes more in
the turn (as you suggested), and accelerating firmly but quickly out, right
on the edge of rear wheel spin? Seems to me like you'd get around faster,
assuming you're following the line of largest-radius. Brake hard to get the
front tires in the groove, then jam the accelerator and fly around the
corner.
Aaron B.
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From: derek_deeter@rainbow.mentorg.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 10:55:48 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: clutch for '87 MR2
I sent some email previously, I just thought of something more to add
to this thread.
Another thing to look at is the pressure plate. Does it apply more
pressure, and how much more? If you've ever been in a car which has
a monster clutch/pressure plate, you'll have noticed right off that
the clutch pedal is mondo hard to press. That's because the pressure
plate needs that much more force to overcome the springs holding the
clutch to the flywheel. So look for the highest rated pressure plate
you can find which will give you a better chance of holding that
power level. Of course, comfort and ease of use become factors here
as well. It's no fun to strain your quadriceps every time you shift.
I still maintain that the largest disk you can put in there will give
you the most holding power for your money. Leverage, plain and simple.
When I went through this, it seemed like every salesman would say,
"Sure, we'll fix you up with something that will work!!" - yeah, sure,
for a month or two.
Unless they can give you some examples of applications like yours which
have _held_, I wouldn't believe them - unless they're willing to give
some sort of guarantee. Even then, you'd still be stuck with the hassle
of replacing the things.
I've heard and read that the dual disk setups are the best of all worlds;
double the holding power at the same clutch pedal pressure and less
inertia. But they are very expensive (~$600+), if they even make them
for your car.
Welcome to the world of experimental, on the edge HP applications...
Derek
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 14:14:27 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
> > With the understeer, I'll come into a hard turn and the front will
> > start sliding (this is a real hard turn, at speed). What I was
doing
> > was just turning a little more (increasing slip angle?) and waiting
> > for the front to come around...and not being on the gas or the
brake.
> > This always worked well enough to keep me on the course but looking
> > back it seems kinda slow. Should I have applied a touch of brake to
> > get more wait over the front tires? Is there anything else I can do
> > to reduce understeer. For example, if understeer is a problem, does
> > that mean I DO NOT want a stiffer front sway bar?
>
> I'm not an expert, but... :)
>
> How about going into the turn faster, then leaning on the brakes
more in
> the turn (as you suggested), and accelerating firmly but quickly out,
right
> on the edge of rear wheel spin? Seems to me like you'd get around
faster,
> assuming you're following the line of largest-radius. Brake hard to
get the
> front tires in the groove, then jam the accelerator and fly around the
> corner.
>
> Aaron B.
I'm not an expert either, but I play one at the race track!
The method Aaron suggests is exactly my driving style. On the other
hand, my current driver does this: Take a relatively high line into the
corner, allowing you to stay a bit faster without loading up your weight
on the front tires by hard braking. Keep in mind that additional weight
detracts from your tire's ability to hold the corner, it does not
improve it. Braking will transfer your weight to the front tires,
exactly what you _don't_ want. The reason my style works (the one Aaron
describes above) is that I brake hard _before_ I start my turn, and then
I work through the corner more gently, with less speed. Tim drives a
much longer, faster line, but does so with less deceleration/
aceleration (ie, less weight transfer.)
As far as your car itself, you are correct in saying that you don't want
a stiffer front sway bar. You _may_ want to tighten up the rear sway
bar (if that's doable) to encourage the rear to absorb more of the
weight transfer. Also, you may need a little more air in the front
tires--see if that helps. Finally, if you are allowed to add negative
camber, do so (if that's adjustable on your model). In reality, what
you need is to do some extensive driving and check your tires with a
tire pyrometer. If you get me those numbers, I can more closely tell
you where to turn. However, any of the suggestions above should help.
Chris
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From: msink@aisg.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 14:19:39 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: clutch for '87 MR2
Derek, thanks
The HKS pressure plate produces 1380 lbs of pressure v/s about 880 stock.
The Centerforce DF increase pressure only at high revs, which means heel and toe
down-shifting may get hard. Anyone ever thought of that? I'll call some race shops
and see if they have anything. I also hate to do away with my ANSA exhaust if I get
a turbo. It looks great. Quad tips, 2 on each side of the '87 MR2. The thing I really
dislike about having to do the clutch again is labor cost. I don't mind so much paying
for parts, I wish I could do more myself.
Mark Sink
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 15:26:50 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
I forwarding this response to my earlier statement from Aaron B. I'll
try to get back with a good response as soon as I get a moment (busy,
busy...) :-(
Chris
----- Begin Included Message -----
> The method Aaron suggests is exactly my driving style. On the other
> hand, my current driver does this: Take a relatively high line into
the
> corner, allowing you to stay a bit faster without loading up your
weight
> on the front tires by hard braking. Keep in mind that additional
weight
> detracts from your tire's ability to hold the corner, it does not
> improve it. Braking will transfer your weight to the front tires,
> exactly what you _don't_ want. The reason my style works (the one
Aaron
> describes above) is that I brake hard _before_ I start my turn, and
then
> I work through the corner more gently, with less speed. Tim drives a
> much longer, faster line, but does so with less deceleration/
> aceleration (ie, less weight transfer.)
Ok, Chris, convince me of this. :) I'll grant that the high-line
approach can work as well or better than the low-line, but you lost me
when you said that additional weight detracts from your tire's ability
to hold the corner. I don't see how that works. There may be secondary
factors that make your _car_ hold the corner less well when you have the
hard weight transfer, but as I see it the tire's got to stick better the
more weight you put on it. To get technical, the frictional force of
the tire is higher the more weight on the tire. To get anecdotal, we
all
know that if you brake hard in a corner your rear tires are going to get
loose, due to the reduced weight on them. Similarly, cars preparing for
high-acceleration runs want to get as much weight over the rear (drive)
tires as possible.
Did you mean that although the front tires stick better when you
brake
hard, you're giving up rear tire traction? That makes sense to me.
There
really are two possible fastest-paths around any corner: the low-line
(less
distance) and the high-line (more speed). In either case, to get the
shortest time around the corner you want to have the car at the limit of
adhesion on all four tires, unless you have really amazing braking and
acceleration. If you turn sharper, the limit of adhesion comes at lower
speed than if you turn more gradually. To get scientific, the faster
you go
the more inertia you have to overcome to turn. The more inertia, the
higher
sideways force you need. The sideways force is exerted by the tires.
Therefore the faster you go the stickier the tires have to be to turn at
a
given angle, and conversely the less angle you turn the higher your
speed
can be at given tire stickyness/friction.
You all asleep yet? :) Now, this ties back into what we're talking
about
in that if you brake hard you're unloading the rear tires, which means
that
you're requiring the front tires to provide the majority of sideways
force
to get you around the turn, whereas if you take the corner smooth you
have
all four tires gripping the road about equally to pull you around. The
$64,000 question is, does the increased weight over front tires/reduced
weight over back tires give equal/greater/lesser sideways/frictional
force
than the weight spread equally over all four tires? Heck, I don't know.
:)
You all feel free to step in and correct me wherever I screwed up. :)
Aaron B.
----- End Included Message -----
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 15:56:02 EDT
To: Chris Myer ,
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
> Ok, Chris, convince me of this. :) I'll grant that the high-line
> approach can work as well or better than the low-line, but you lost me
> when you said that additional weight detracts from your tire's ability
> to hold the corner. I don't see how that works.
As you note, due to the non-linear characteristic of the rubber coefficient
of friction, loading the front up will give less total traction (front+rear),
but I don't think that's what Chris meant. The other factor you have to
consider is the friction circle of the front tires. The total normal force
on a tire, times the instantaneous cF, gives the total tangential force the road
can exert on the tire (approximately, of course...). If you are braking hard,
you are exerting a significant rearward vector on the tire.
If you then try to turn hard at the same time,
you add a lateral vector. Vectors add head to tail, but since these two are
approximately at right angles, the Pythagorean theorem gives the magnitude
of the total force required as (Ftotal)^2 = (Fbraking)^2 + (Fturning)^2.
So, assuming constant normal force, you have to trade braking force for
turning force to stay at the limit of traction. Naturally, weight transfer
due to braking means that the normal force ISN'T constant, but that's the
instantaneous effect: no free lunch. And since the cF tails off under increased
load, the weight transfer due to braking won't increase the available turning
force by as much as it increases the force required to effect the weight
transfer. Sorry if this is dry and boring, but the only way I've found to
drive better and go faster is to think hard about what I'm asking the car
to do and try to think of things to do that ought to make it faster, THEN
try to learn how to do them. That way, I'm not just flailing in the dark...
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: Steven_Jackson.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 17:01:18 EDT
To: UNIXML.."toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com"@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
> Ok, Chris, convince me of this. :) I'll grant that the high-line
> approach can work as well or better than the low-line, but you lost me
> when you said that additional weight detracts from your tire's ability
> to hold the corner. I don't see how that works.
Fred Puhn's book <> has a good primer on the
physics of vehicle dynamics, and there are other books as well, that most of us
have probably read and reread. The net of these texts state that given all
other things equal (like they ever are) reducing mass will always improve every
performance measure of a car.
Slip angles are the appropriate term here to answer why additional mass
detracts from a tire's ability to grip in a corner. Cut to the chase: Yes,
there is greater downward force on the tire with more mass, but the result is
that greater mass incurs larger slip angles netting out in less grip. It's the
dynamics of tire elasticity that make suspension tuning possible. And the
lowest possible, practical mass is always desirable.
The fastest racing cars, like F1, Formula Atlantic, the sport prototype cars,
are the exercises of a lot of things including the effects of low mass. The
fastest SCCA Solo II cars, modified formula Ralts, Swifts, Reynards, Brabhams,
and Lotuses or cars like Lotus Elans, Europas and Sevens are all low mass. You
simply can't make a car like a Corvette, an RX-7, an MR2, or a Supra
competitive in this type of event to these light weights. There's just too
much working against you from the start. A stock Caterham HPC will pull over a
<> with regular Goodyear tires.
- Steven
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From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 14:15:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
I'm getting soooooo confused . . maybe its just the nomenclature!!!
Maybe this will help me out. For the understeering situation described by
Brain, he can do one of the following, assuming he takes the same line thru
the turn, to eliminate the understeer:
a) Stiffen the front shocks
b) Stiffen the rear sway bar
c) Brake before entering the turn thus shedding speed (duh)
d) Add front tires with better adhesion
e) All of the above
f) Some of the above
g) More than the above
h) none of the above
i) Clark, don't quit your day job
I'm not promoting the idea that suspension system tweeking is this cut and dry,
but in my ignorance a) through d) seem avenues that might improve handling
for the situation Brain describes. Obviously I'm still waiting for my copy
of Perfomance Handling to arrive (DAMN!)
Clark
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
To: Steven_Jackson.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 17:17:00 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> Slip angles are the appropriate term here to answer why additional mass
> detracts from a tire's ability to grip in a corner. Cut to the chase: Yes,
> there is greater downward force on the tire with more mass, but the result is
> that greater mass incurs larger slip angles netting out in less grip. It's the
> dynamics of tire elasticity that make suspension tuning possible. And the
> lowest possible, practical mass is always desirable.
Hey, I wasn't arguing that a heavier car is more desirable!
You've got me pegged wrong. Obviously, a heavier car has more
inertia, therefore is harder to turn. Give me a bit more credit than
that. :) What I didn't understand is how increasing weight on a _tire_
decreases the amount of frictional force that tire is able to exert on
the road. If that's explained by slip angles, I'd appreciate it if
you'd go into more detail since I can't recall what the term means.
It seems from John's post that the frictional coefficient for tires,
and therefore the frictional force, decreases with increasing load,
which I'd never heard of before.
Aaron B.
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From: derek_deeter@rainbow.mentorg.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 18:28:43 PDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: clutch for '87 MR2
>
> The HKS pressure plate produces 1380 lbs of pressure v/s about 880 stock.
> The Centerforce DF increase pressure only at high revs, which means heel and toe
> down-shifting may get hard. Anyone ever thought of that? I'll call some race shops << good idea!
That HKS pressure plate sounds pretty good, although is it in line with the
amount of power increase you're expecting? i.e., 1380/880 = 56% increase
in pressure, is 200HP around 56% increase from stock? If so, that will
probably work pretty well, especially if you can get the 210mm size disk.
I also wonder about the Centerforce system, the same thing
you mentioned, it does sound like it would be harder to shift at higher
RPM's. Maybe it doesn't matter, since you're between gears, and not
trying to finess the car off the line. However, I have heard that those
work great for some makes and not others. I think H*nda was one make
that they didn't work very well on.
> and see if they have anything. I also hate to do away with my ANSA exhaust if I get
> a turbo. It looks great. Quad tips, 2 on each side of the '87 MR2.
Sounds cool - perhaps you could get a muffler shop to adapt it - Naah,
all they do is stock pipes and mufflers nowadays.
> The thing I really
> dislike about having to do the clutch again is labor cost. I don't mind so much paying
> for parts, I wish I could do more myself.
>
Even so, it's still a lot of work.
Good Luck -
Derek
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 09:43:02 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
ACK! Dead computer thing. I mailed this just before my computer went
belly-up, so I was not sure if it went out or not. If you just mailed
something and didn't get a copy back, please resend it. If you mailed
it and got a "will keep trying for 3 days" type message, it should get
through on its own.
Chris
----- Begin Included Message -----
>From cmyer Wed Apr 27 09:11:40 1994
To: toyota-mods
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
Content-Length: 5143
X-Lines: 58
> Hey, I wasn't arguing that a heavier car is more desirable!
> You've got me pegged wrong. Obviously, a heavier car has more
> inertia, therefore is harder to turn. Give me a bit more credit than
> that. :) What I didn't understand is how increasing weight on a _tire_
> decreases the amount of frictional force that tire is able to exert on
> the road. If that's explained by slip angles, I'd appreciate it if
> you'd go into more detail since I can't recall what the term means.
Slip angles and tire deformation under load are the keys here. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that putting more weight
on an object makes it more difficult to slide across a surface.
However, that relationship isn't linear (An equations please, Mr.
Pedantico). Obviously you don't want to remove all of the weight from a
tire. Actually, the goal is to keep the weight perfectly distributed on
all 4 tires all of the time. When your weight transfers, say from the
left side to the right side, the problem isn't so much losing a coupla
hundred pounds of downforce on the left, its adding a couple of hundred
pounds to the right. Now, if that coupla hundred was pointing straight
down, no problem, but its not. It is pointing to the right.
Well, to get to the point, this is deforming your tire. As a minimum,
it is creating slip angle, and as a maximum it could be lifting the
inside edge of your tire off the ground. Slip angle (as I understand
and like to think of it) is where the contact patch of your tire is
pointing in the direction of the car's travel but the external forces on
the tire are shifting the tread in front of the contact patch to the
outside of the turn. Remember, this is assuming you haven't lost
adhesion yet, at which time slip angle disappears. Basically, slip
angle means that you aren't really "sliding", per se, but rather side
stepping as the car moves through the turn. Let's see if I can do some
horrible ascii-art:
Tire Viewed from the bottom. Contact patch is center 1/3.
No slip angle:
| | ^
| | Direction of Travel |
| | |
Slip angle:
| | ^ (Arrowhead should point left with
arrow!)
\ \ Direction of Travel \
| | \
Yes, this is way over-exagerrated, but you can see that in the second
example, the car is traveling one way, but the forces on the tire are
"bending" the tread towards the outside of the turn. What happens when
the out-of-alignment front edge comes into contact with the ground? It
is forced into alignment, but since it made contact at a point to the
outside of the previous contact, this new contact point is to the
outside. Remember, this is a continuous effect, rather that the
discrete process that I have described. You can see, though that the
end effect is a stepping of the tire to the outside of the turn.
> It seems from John's post that the frictional coefficient for tires,
> and therefore the frictional force, decreases with increasing load,
> which I'd never heard of before.
>
> Aaron B.
It doesn't decrease, its just non-linear, as I stated earlier. The
whole bottom line of suspension tuning can be simplified into a
statement something like this:
Create a suspension that at all times keeps 25% of the weight on each
tire, keeps 100% of that tire's weight directed towards the center of
the earth, and the face of that tire flat on the track.
Note that this is impossible. That is why circle track racers put ~53%
of their weight on the rear tires, ~53% on the left side and ~56% on the
RF to LR diagonal (this differs for different cars and different
tracks.) The then put around 3-5 degrees of negative camber in the RF
tire and the 1-3 degrees of _positive_ camber in the LF tire. This
allows their cars to come close to meeting the stated goal above in the
turn where it is most important. Which brings us to this pop-quiz,
submitted by Clark:
a) Stiffen the front shocks
b) Stiffen the rear sway bar
c) Brake before entering the turn thus shedding speed (duh)
d) Add front tires with better adhesion
e) All of the above
f) Some of the above
g) More than the above
h) none of the above
i) Clark, don't quit your day job
I say (for everyone on this list) "i" is the right answer! At least not
until you find a sponsor who has millions of dollars to spend on you
experimenting to find out which of a-h is right. Let me point out that
experimentation is exactly how the big boys do it. Sure, they've
experimented for years so they can get a lot closer than you or I with
their first guess, but then they tweak-drive-tweak-drive (multiply maybe
20-50 times per race!) until they find out what works right for that
car, for that driver, for that track, for those conditions, etc. etc.
etc. However, if you want a good "cook book" guide for fixing
over/understeer problems, just look at (GAG! He's gonna mention that
book again!) the TPHandbook, where Pat Braden discusses how to
increase/decrease oversteer/understeer.)
OK, I've blabbed too much already. Someone else take it from here...
Chris
----- End Included Message -----
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 09:45:12 EDT
To: SAVE@cpva.saic.com, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Re Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
> Brain, he can do one of the following, assuming he takes the same line thru
> the turn, to eliminate the understeer:
> a) Stiffen the front shocks
This will actually increase transient understeer (the initial plow that
happens when you first turn in) and it won't help any once the suspension
settles.
> i) Clark, don't quit your day job
Always good advice for racers without a big sponsorship contract...
As they say, the way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with
a big one...
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 10:08:50 EDT
To: Chris Myer ,
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
> > It seems from John's post that the frictional coefficient for tires,
> > and therefore the frictional force, decreases with increasing load,
> > which I'd never heard of before.
> > Aaron B.
Chris writes:
> It doesn't decrease, its just non-linear, as I stated earlier.
Chris, I don't mean to pick nits, but if it's not linear, and it
doesn't go up, then what DOES it do? Actually, the effective coefficient
of friction does indeed decrease with increased load - that's the kind
of non-linearity that it exhibits. It doesn't decrease fast enough that
the friction force available will decrease with load (at least as long
as you keep the load within the load rating of the tire), but it does
decrease. Just less rapidly than the load is increasing.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: bahrr@pictel.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 10:39:58 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
Hi,
This seems like an intersting line! Anyway my .02 follows - please ignore
if deemed braindead.
The thing which is important is that for some mass ( i.e. weight / grav attr)
which is rotating in some manner i.e. a car going around
a corner) there will be a bunch of forces at play. In terms of adheision though,
there will be a component which is perpindicular ( pardon the spelling) to
the direction of travel.This is one force which causes the tires to lose
traction. ( Others include pushing the go button to hard while in a
corner - this is one place where slip angles come into play). The reason
is that the angular momentum contains the mass of the vehicle as a component.
The traction generated by the tires can handle a certain angular momentum
which can be affected by eithor the speed of the vehicle, the mass of the
vehicle, or the diamenter of the arc being traced by the car. The mass of the
vehicle will quickly become the dominating factor.
Also as far as dragsters are concrened what is important is weight distribution
and as for most cars balance. The image which comes to mind is the picture in
'Making Your Car Handle' is the dragster launching with its front tires off the
ground and not flipping over!!
All the above drivel ignors dynamic behaviors - I am dealing entirely with a
static sitiation :-)
Ray
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 07:51:32 -0700
To: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien), Chris Myer ,
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
On Apr 27, 10:08am, John Lupien wrote:
> Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
> > > It seems from John's post that the frictional coefficient for tires,
> > > and therefore the frictional force, decreases with increasing load,
> > > which I'd never heard of before.
> > > Aaron B.
> Chris writes:
>
> > It doesn't decrease, its just non-linear, as I stated earlier.
>
> Chris, I don't mean to pick nits, but if it's not linear, and it
> doesn't go up, then what DOES it do? Actually, the effective coefficient
> of friction does indeed decrease with increased load - that's the kind
> of non-linearity that it exhibits. It doesn't decrease fast enough that
> the friction force available will decrease with load (at least as long
> as you keep the load within the load rating of the tire), but it does
> decrease. Just less rapidly than the load is increasing.
It does two things... The friction curve is linear til the threshold of
traction has been reached and it's like spikes and exponentially decreases.
The spike is as well as the grade of the curve sharpens as the performance of
the tire increases. That's why when performance tires let go... they really
let go (i.e. spectacular spinouts, crashes, etc...) unlike high mileage, hard
compound tire that will squeal and slide all day (perfect training tires to
learn recovery) with substantial control due to lack of steepness in that
spike.
/|
/ |
/ |
/ | eg. high performance tire curve. (sorry, for the poor
/ | representation).
/ \______
I hope I am hitting on the right subject...
Latas,
Allan Chen
Silicon Graphics Inc.
Mountain View, CA
allanc@sgi.com
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 11:01:28 EDT
To: Raymond Bahr , toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
Raymond writes:
> In terms of adheision though,
> there will be a component which is perpindicular ( pardon the spelling) to
> the direction of travel.This is one force which causes the tires to lose
> traction.
You must mean the lateral force - the vertical force is also perpendicular
to the direction of travel...
> The reason
> is that the angular momentum contains the mass of the vehicle as a component.
> The traction generated by the tires can handle a certain angular momentum
> which can be affected by eithor the speed of the vehicle, the mass of the
> vehicle, or the diamenter of the arc being traced by the car. The mass of the
> vehicle will quickly become the dominating factor.
> All the above drivel ignors dynamic behaviors - I am dealing entirely with a
> static sitiation :-)
Can you tell me exactly what force at the tires is generated by a constant
angular momentum? The answer (in advance) is "none" - maintaining a constant
angular momentum is the default state: a body rotating at a constant rate
will continue to rotate at that rate UNLESS an external moment is applied to
it. The angular momentum only has an impact on tire forces during changes
in angular velocity, not during steady-state cornering. The exact relationship
between tire forces and angular momentum is that the first derivative of
angular momentum is equal to the effective torque about the center of rotation
generated by the tire forces: in integral form, the total change in angular
momentum is equal to the total angular impulse applied to the rotating body.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 11:04:20 EDT
To: "Allan Chen" ,
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
Allen writes:
> It does two things... The friction curve is linear til the threshold of
> traction has been reached and it's like spikes and exponentially decreases.
Not really - the friction curve is relatively linear at the low end of the
curve, but it does tail off considerably before the traction limit is reached.
I agree that in the stickier tires, the drop-off after the traction limit
is MUCH steeper, and the resulting effects are much more catastrophic...
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:36:20 -0700
To: bahrr@pictel.com (Raymond Bahr), toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: CG of dragsters...
On Apr 27, 10:39am, Raymond Bahr wrote:
> Subject:
> Also as far as dragsters are concrened what is important is weight
> distribution and as for most cars balance. The image which comes to mind is
> the picture in 'Making Your Car Handle' is the dragster launching with its
> front tires off the ground and not flipping over!!
Four-link suspensions are designed just for that purpose (excellent
book to read, got a copy). It permits you to adjust the moment arm of the
rear-end in relation to the CG of the drag "car". As for dragsters it's an
entirely different ball game due to the speeds obtained and the horsepower
created. Down force (adjustable tail) and traction aids (wheelie bars) are
required at that level of competition.
Sorry for this little off the tangent subject.
Latas,
Allan Chen
Silicon Graphics Inc.
Mountain View, CA
allanc@sgi.com
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:38:17 -0700
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
--- Forwarded mail from abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
To: allanc (Allan Chen)
> It does two things... The friction curve is linear til the threshold of
> traction has been reached and it's like spikes and exponentially decreases.
> The spike is as well as the grade of the curve sharpens as the performance
of
> the tire increases. That's why when performance tires let go... they really
> let go (i.e. spectacular spinouts, crashes, etc...) unlike high mileage, hard
> compound tire that will squeal and slide all day (perfect training tires to
> learn recovery) with substantial control due to lack of steepness in that
> spike.
>
> /|
> / |
> / |
> / | eg. high performance tire curve. (sorry, for the poor
> / | representation).
> / \______
Looks like you're trying to draw the curve of tire frictional
force vs. _lateral_ load (i.e. vs. cornering force). I think the
original point was what is the curve for frictional force vs. _normal_
load, i.e. for varying amounts of braking. I think Chris went off on
a tangent about lateral loads as well, when (as I saw it) the original
point was what is the effect on the tire of varying normal load
through different amounts of braking? The weight transfer is
front-rear, not sideways, when braking.
Aaron B.
--- End of forwarded mail from abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
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From: Steven_Jackson.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 11:42:02 EDT
To: UNIXML.."toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com"@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
Aaron:
> Hey, I wasn't arguing that a heavier car is more desirable!
> You've got me pegged wrong. Obviously, a heavier car has more
> inertia, therefore is harder to turn. Give me a bit more credit than
> that. :)
I certainly didn't mean to suggest you were arguing for the virtues of a higher
mass car. I think my tone around the issue of mass can occasionally be a bit
hard. After spending some seat time in a Formula Ford and being enamored with
the design and dynamics of race cars like this. I lament that I can't make a
Swift Formula Atlantic work for my everyday driver -- though I haven't given up
thinking about it.
My Lotus Elan and my friend's hyperactive Caterham 7 are about as close as I
think I'll get to these kind of dynamics on a public road (and yes, I do think
Colin Chapman was the cat's meow), but in New England these aren't easily
everyday drivers, either. Given all this, I think you can probably figure out
why I found the MR2 such an attractive platform, and I'm excited to begin
sorting out the chassis.
> What I didn't understand is how increasing weight on a _tire_
> decreases the amount of frictional force that tire is able to exert on
> the road. If that's explained by slip angles, I'd appreciate it if
> you'd go into more detail since I can't recall what the term means.
Chris did an excellent job providing detail about slip angles and more, along
with fine ascii illustrations. I don't yet have the revered Toyota Performance
Handbook, a key resource in the my efforts with my MR2, so I don't know if it
provides more general chassis tuning theory as some other books do.
- Steven
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From: allanc@sydney.corp.sgi.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:49:09 -0700
To: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien), lupienj@hpwala.wal.hp.com (John Lupien),
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
On Apr 27, 11:04am, John Lupien wrote:
> Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
> Allen writes:
> > It does two things... The friction curve is linear til the threshold of
> > traction has been reached and it's like spikes and exponentially decreases.
>
> Not really - the friction curve is relatively linear at the low end of the
> curve, but it does tail off considerably before the traction limit is
reached.
> I agree that in the stickier tires, the drop-off after the traction limit
> is MUCH steeper, and the resulting effects are much more catastrophic...
Thanks for the correction... it's been awhile since I stuck my nose in
a Physics book *grin*. I did remember seeing the curve... but my memory is
failing me. Must be the old age thing *hahaha*
Latas,
Allan
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 11:58:21 EDT
To: "Allan Chen" ,
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo (REPOST)
> I did remember seeing the curve... but my memory is
> failing me. Must be the old age thing *hahaha*
That's right, Allan, the failing memory is the second sign of old age.
I can't remember what the first sign is...
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: My Supra Story
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 14:11:33 -0400 (EDT)
(Warning: long story ahead. :) )
I suppose I should whip up a note to update everyone on what I've been
doing with my car. The last thing I posted about was that I was having
trouble with misfiring after changing plugs. With 46,000 miles on my '90
Supra Turbo I changed the plugs to Bosch platinums, which accelerated very
smoothly but would misfire very noticeably at idle. I ended up pulling
the plugs out, re-gapping, and re-installing them, with no change. Then
I switched to Autolites and still had the misfiring problem, plus the
acceleration was also rougher and slower. So I figured, well why not
go directly to the source, and called Toyota for plugs. They quoted
me $14 per plug. $84 for a spark plug change, not including labor, was
too much for me to take so I put the original Toyota plugs back in and
am still using them. No more misfire problem.
I guess the continuation to that story is that I called up Russell
Toyota to get some genuine Toyota oil filters, and also asked them how much
they would sell me the Toyota plugs for. They quoted me $10-something each,
and I figured I'm going to have to change the plugs anyway, and I've had it
with trying mix-and-match aftermarket plugs so I went ahead and ordered
them.
Since my post about the misfiring, I've gone through a roller-coaster-
ride with an HKS Turbo Exhaust and Variable Boost Control. I got the VBC
first, since it was less than $100 and easily affordable. The HKS docs say
they don't recommend using it with the stock exhaust system due to adverse
heat build-up in the turbo and engine block due to the higher boost pressure
and restrictive exhaust. I decided to settle for ~8 PSI boost (stock is 6
PSI), figuring that that would be enough increase to keep me happy until I
could get the turbo exhaust and would be low enough to prevent turbo/engine
damage.
I ran that way for a few weeks, then when I built up the cash supply I
ordered the HKS 75mm Turbo Exhaust (both it and the VBC from Toysport in
California). I slapped it on and cranked the boost up. I didn't upgrade my
boost gauge, so I didn't have a sure-fire method to set the boost. What I
did was a combination of estimating the off-the-scale needle position and
slowly adjusting boost up until I hit the fuel cutoff at ~12 PSI. After
that 12 PSI run when I hit the stock fuel computer cutoff I backed off a bit
and that's where it's at now.
Anyway, that lasted for about 3 days. I was accelerating (hard) away
from a stoplight, the boost gauge got to ~6, and all of a sudden the
acceleration completely dropped off. I immediately backed off the
accelerator, but couldn't hear anything weird happening in the engine bay so
I kept constant speed to the next light. The next light I accelerated more
gradually, but still enough to bring up the boost and again at ~6 PSI the
acceleration halted. I drove gently to my destination, where I checked the
turbo intake hoses. It being nighttime, I couldn't see much but I felt a
bit of oil on one, and thought it must have come from the turbo. I drove
home in a very depressed state.
The next day I checked the turbocharger and couldn't find anywhere that
oil would be coming from. I checked the dipstick and the engine seemed to
be down about 3/4 quart of oil. I check the oil level with every fill-up,
and a week eariler it had been full. I then disassembled the various turbo
air intake hoses and found an oil-looking substance in one of the air intake
hoses leading from the intercooler into the engine block. At that point I
assumed I had blown my turbo.
My car still had about 6 months/13,000 miles of Toyota warranty left, so
I figured if something is wrong with the turbo I'll take it to them and see
what they say. I put all the stock parts back on (had to order a
replacement rubber hose because the VBC requires you splice into one of the
stock ones), including the stock exhaust. I drove it in stock form for a
week and couldn't make the thing misbehave. Ran fine, couldn't detect any
significant oil loss, no smoke clouds, nothing strange whatsoever.
Finally last weekend I said heck with it and put the turbo exhaust and
VBC back on. I crept up on 6 PSI, no problems, 8 PSI, no problems, 10 PSI
no problems. I rammed up to ~12 PSI, no problems. So right now my best
guess is that something wasn't tightened up enough on my first installation.
When I raised boost to 12 it came loose and then somehow was causing
acceleration to sharply drop off at 6 PSI.
In any case, it's too soon for me to be assume that everything's
hunky-dory. I'm going to be keeping a close eye on oil consumption over the
next couple weeks. I did research some alternatives if the turbo did turn
out to be dead and Toyota wouldn't replace it for me. I talked with several
Turbo rebuild places and prices were about $450 for a Turbo rebuild and $900
for a replacement (probably a different, rebuilt turbo). HKS Sport Turbo
upgrades can be had for ~$1800.
Also, I had a very informative talk with Corky at CarTech. I didn't
realize it at the time, but I think I must have been talking with Corky
Bell, the president of CarTech. I think it's a bit improbable that there be
two Corkys in an operation as small as CarTech (<100 people, I'd guess).
Anyway, he seemed to know a lot about turbos. I don't remember all the
details of our conversation, but he didn't thought my problem might have
been something other than the turbo (and it seems he was right) though he
did say that a blown front turbo seal I believe could act similarly. I
asked about overboosting turbos and he said that it doesn't make much
difference wear-wise how fast they are spinning, which does seem to me a bit
hard to believe.
We also talked about intercoolers. He said that the lesser restriction
provided by aftermarket intercoolers is as important or more so than the
greater cooling effect. He said that you can lose up to 2 psi or more in
the intercooler, so that at 12 psi indicated boost the engine's only
actually operating on 10. His thoughts there led me to believe that an
intercooler upgrade would be more worthwhile than I originally thought.
BTW, Spearco charges about $650, if I remember correctly, for their
intercooler upgrade for the Supra Turbo. Anyway, if people want more
details about our talk I'll find my notes and try to dredge up more memories
of the conversation.
Also, I talked to Joel at Toysport about possible turbo upgrades if
I did end up buying a new turbo. He didn't think my problem was
turbo-related, either. In any case, he said that now he wouldn't
recommend buying the aftermarket Garret-type turbo upgrades, like HKS
and CarTech use, since they involve substantial modifications to oil
lines and such and he said they leak a lot. He recommended the
apparently newly-available factory Toyota turbo upgrade. He said the
upgrade comes from revised rotor sizing/design. It fits all stock
mounting points, lines, etc. He said they go for $2200 each. I think
if I did have to replace the turbo myself that's the route I'd go.
Also he told me that although the powertrain warranty is 5
years/60,000 miles, Toyota will only replace the turbo with a new one
up to 50,000 miles. After 50,000 Toyota apparently gives you a
rebuilt one. He also said that these model Supras were fine up to
about 14 PSI, after that he said you start getting _head_ warping
problems. Sounds unpleasant.
One of those two guys did say that rebuilt turbos usually have
smaller-diameter rotors than stock, so a rebuilt turbo would have
_less_ power than the stock one. That was a big factor in deciding
that if I do have to fix the turbo I'll go with an upgraded one right
away, rather than fix the old.
Anyway, the point I'm at now is VBC and Turbo Exhaust on, boost at
~12 PSI, and going like a bat out of hell. :) Seriously, the
improvement in acceleration is just immense. The character of the car
is totally transformed by the 25% power increase. Someone correct me
if I'm wrong here, but the power produced by an engine is determined
mostly by how much air & fuel you can burn. Stock is 15 PSI
(atmospheric) + 6 PSI (boost) of air with accompanying quantity of
fuel, now at 15 PSI + 12 PSI with accompanying quantity of fuel.
Therefore I've increased the amount of fuel & air in the engine by
(27-21)/21 = ~29%. Even if the net power increase is only 20% due to
other limiting factors, that's still in the range of 232*1.2 = 278 hp
and 254*1.2 = 304 lb-ft, which pretty much agrees with the figures HKS
quotes for the combination.
So assuming that nothing is damaged, I'm pretty happy with the way the
car feels now. :) I'll probably stick either a K&N or other high-flow
intake device on in the next couple weeks, then wait a few months before
going to the next big upgrade. The next big upgrade will probably be either
the intercooler upgrade or an HKS Programmed Fuel Controller.
I hope this story was useful, or at least entertaining, to someone. :)
Aaron B.
P.S. Ehab, are you out there? Did you ever go with the AIC or
PFC/F-CON or whatever it was you were going to get to up the boost to
14 PSI? How's that working out? And Brian, if you can somehow get
around the autocrossing restrictions I'd definitely recommend the VBC.
Can't beat it in bang for the buck.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: My Supra Story
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 14:49:18 -0400 (EDT)
I should have done a better job proofreading. In case you couldn't
figure it out, here's what I meant in this part:
> Anyway, he seemed to know a lot about turbos. I don't remember all the
> details of our conversation, but he didn't thought my problem might have
^^^^^^ pretend this word doesn't exist
> been something other than the turbo (and it seems he was right) though he
> did say that a blown front turbo seal I believe could act similarly. I
Aaron B.
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From: ehab@cisco.com
Subject: Re: My Supra Story..Supra owners read!
To: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 13:51:41 PDT
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Hi guys, I am still here. I think what is happening in your case is that
the ECU has a memory of 12 psi and is shutting the fuel down. that is why you
are seeing drop in acceleration. You should never use a VBC. You should get
an EVC or similar electronic device. You see, You get Spikes of boost when you
use a mechanical device to control the boost. The EVC controls the boost so
you never get above the preset level. Once the computers sees the spikes, it
learns to reduce power as you approach these spikes. You said you set it at 12
psi which is at the limit, every time you approach that the ECU will retard
timing OR cut fuel. I know it happend to me. You have to remove the ECU Fuse
for about 5 minutes to earse the memory.
I have installed my PFC-FCON and am getting 14 PSI of boost. It sounds and feels
great. I am monitering the boost at the intake manifold using a VDO boost gauge.
This is a must for anybody playing with the boost. Also, Install a mixture
control gauge to moniter your gas/air ratio (I did). It will tell you if you
are running lean or reach. This is cheaper than a EGT gauge at $200.
If you want to talk in detail call me at 415-6884462 10 to 7 pm Ca time..
Ehab.
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From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 16:52:15 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: HP from Acceleration*velocity*mass
I have access to a G-Analyst, and was wondering...Is there any way to
get a "ballpark" figure of horsepower doing some testing with the
G-analyst?
Here's my thinking. The units of HP are (m2*kg)/sec3 where m2 means
meters squared and sec3 means seconds cubed. In other words:
1 HP = 745 (m/sec2)*(m/sec)*kg
or
1 HP = 74.5 * 1g * (m/sec) * kg
Does this seem right? If I continue:
My HP = 74.5 * Acceleration (in "g"s) * Velocity (in meters/sec) * kg
If that's right, I'm almost there. I simply hook up my G analyst,
record the speed/acceleration simultaneously (probably via a video
camera pointed at both) and do a WOT run, say from 2000 rpm to 6500
rpm. Then, using the speed/acceleration data, times kg......
AARRGGHH. Anybody got any idea who let this kg fellow on the track?
Obviously its not the weight (ok, mass) of the car. Any guesses?
Chris
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: My Supra Story
To: goble@maxwell.ee.washington.edu (Brian Goble)
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 17:03:22 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> A while back I really wanted the EVC from HKS but, as you mentioned,
> that would take me out of stock autox class (B stock). With your VBC,
> you really should get an aftermarket gauge because I was warned that
> the VBC will slowly change it's setting (it's just a screw you turn
> or something, right?) So you could slowly get more or less boost
> and more boost would be a problem. Everyone I talked to said "get an
> aftermarket boost gauge". One problem is where to mount one that doesn't
> look bad.
I probably should get a boost gauge. I definitely will if I
increase the boost any more. Right now I'm basically relying on the
fuel cutoff, which I think is a more or less safe practice. I don't
see how harm can come from having the fuel flow cut off, and since all
the engine components should be able to handle the 12 PSI at which the
fuel is cut off I don't think I'm endangering anything. Over time
I may end up losing boost due to the VBC drifting, but that's more an
inconvenience than anything. Eventually I plan to go to the EVC, but
that's probably going to happen after intercooler and Programmed Fuel
Controller or Additional Injector Controller upgrades.
> Although I really do want more acceleration for street driving, I am
> having too much fun at the autox...you just can't drive your car like
> that on the street. I really recommend that everyone out there gives
> it a try...anyone with a driver's license and safe car can enter. It
> is tons of fun as well as a learning experience in driving and how
> your car reacts/handles.
I'm sure I'd enjoy autocrossing, but my concern is how much
faster you wear things out. Tires, brakes, clutch, and suspension all
undergo much more rapid wearout/breakdown in autocross than in even
"spirited" street driving, and those things all cost big $$$ on
Supras. I almost wish I kept my old Celica to mod up and use for
autocrossing. Actually, we have a '74 AMC Hornet in the garage right
now... hmmm.... :)
> Aaron, you might consider going for the HKS fuel computer since you're
> running fairly high boost (compared to stock). Also, for $177, how
> bout going for the HKS Power Flow open air box air filter?
I'm actually thinking about going for the K&N equivalent. It
uses the a big 360-degree open cone-type filter, but with the
oil-impregnated filter paper rather than the HKS's foam. Should be as
good or better than the HKS in both airflow and filtration. I think
it costs more like $225 though.
> I hope your car doesn't give you any more turbo scares :)
Me too. :)
I should mention that I realize I'm cutting corners and playing a
bit fast & loose with my car. Basically, I'm gambling. It's great if
I win, and I can afford it if I lose. 1) My car is more of a luxury
than a necessity, since room & board is still provided by my parents,
and I can bike to work. 2) I've got the credit cards cleared up and
ready to go if something major decides to break. So no lectures
please, just useful advice. :)
Aaron B.
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From: msink@aisg.com
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 17:07:07 EDT
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: HP from Acceleration*velocity*mass
This is where my Performance Analyzer will produce a curve for you,
given other specs about the car and the G's you have generated, it will
calculate TQ/HP.
If you're interested, send me some info. Gear ratios, tires size, CD,
what type of car, 0-60 1/4 miles, ANYTHING you know. Weight... I
haven't used this feature yet, but I'll look into it for you.
Send a CC to mark.sink@mms.raleigh.nc.us (my other address I can get from home)
This should be FUN.
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 15:28:31 EDT
From: msink@aisg.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: HP from Acceleration*velocity*mass
CD is Coeficient of Drag. An estimate is good enough. What about
frontal surface area? Is this car about the size of a current Celica?
I also can give you the equation you were looking for. I used to
calculate G's from HP before I got the program, it's not a complicated
one. Mass=Weight/32 I believe. I'll get out my book for the whole
thing. Even if you don't know G's, it will calculate that also if
given time to speed intervals. 10-20 took x seconds 20-30 .... and so
on. Or RPM's 1000-2000 in 2 seconds 2000-3000... and so on. Knowing
this will also give a power curve.
Have you guys ever thought about creating a discount club with our
enthusiatic members. The Toy Store in Gardena CA seems like I nice
place to talk to. I saw one other member here mention Joel, who is
helping me with a Turbo. I think we could setup an deal with them for
75-80% off of retail. Then we could all buy our stuff from them with
no hassles. Anyone interested?
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 18:11:51 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: HP from Acceleration*velocity*mass
> CD is Coeficient of Drag. An estimate is good enough. What about
> frontal surface area? Is this car about the size of a current Celica?
> I also can give you the equation you were looking for. I used to
> calculate G's from HP before I got the program, it's not a complicated
> one. Mass=Weight/32 I believe. I'll get out my book for the whole
> thing. Even if you don't know G's, it will calculate that also if
> given time to speed intervals. 10-20 took x seconds 20-30 .... and so
> on. Or RPM's 1000-2000 in 2 seconds 2000-3000... and so on. Knowing
> this will also give a power curve.
I'll have to grok this a while. CD probably sux for several reasons.
First, there is no grill, no lights, nothing, so the area between the
hood and the front bumper looks like a big parachute! I've already
designed a template that will fill this area and make it a lot more
aerodynamic, but nothing like the current Celica. Another big "sux" is
the fact that there are _no_ windows except the front windshield.
_MAJOR_ turbulance is developed which causes major drag. I don't think
they'd even allow us to install Lexan windows in our current class,
however I think it is permissible in the mini-stock class, when I move
up. If you needed a car to estimate CD from, I'd say, oh, something on
the order of a '75 Lincoln Towncar. Really.
> Have you guys ever thought about creating a discount club with our
> enthusiatic members. The Toy Store in Gardena CA seems like I nice
> place to talk to. I saw one other member here mention Joel, who is
> helping me with a Turbo. I think we could setup an deal with them for
> 75-80% off of retail. Then we could all buy our stuff from them with
> no hassles. Anyone interested?
I've said from time to time that when we call a supplier, we should try
to mention our group and get a good relationship developed with them, if
for no other reason than to have a friend we can call and get stupid
questions answered. The problem is how to approach it. Think about it
like this. You're an hourly clerk at a big parts place. Some kinda
geeky guy named Chris calls and starts talking to you about "internet"
and "Information Superhighway" and "Mailing Lists". Immediately you say
to yourself, "Why do I always get the wierdos?"
Now back to our side of the story. Probably what we need to do is to
find a good way to introduce ourselves in a simple, non-intimidating way
that makes us sound like a large group of gung-ho Toyota Modifiers and
not 60 random computer weenies spread across the globe from strange
places like Singapore and Finland. (Strange, that is, to a person who
thinks travel abroad is going across the state line with your
girlfriend!) I'd love to be able to call TRD and say "Hey RJ, whassup?"
and he say "Chris, Mr. Toyota Modifications! Hey, I just got off the
phone with Koji! I sold him 3 complete 2TG engines for $500! Gosh, I
love helping you guys, because you're all so COOL!"
Sorry. Back down to earth. This is part of our reason for having a
fairly detailed supplier list. We encourage all of our members to
consult the list before they contact someone and to try to use the same
person each time. If nobody is listed, be sure to write the group and
say who you used, and whether or not they were helpful. Tom Julien then
faithfully enters this data in the "comments" section under that
supplier's entry. Just watch, on the next distribution of the supplier
listing, under the ToyStore, Joel will get a(nother) Kudo beside his
name as a good contact.
Which doesn't directly address your question. However, I am very open
to ideas. And I REALLY encourage each of you to take the time to check
the supplier listing and try to use the same person each time. And, if
it doesn't make you feel too geeky, you can mention the internet. Or
the Information Superhighway. And this group. (*blush*)
Chris
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From: "Aaron Buhr"
Subject: Re: My Supra Story..Supra owners read!
To: wg%rmats1@riem.com (Wayne R. Graves)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 11:20:28 +0000 (BST)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
>
> I think the story on the 'Temp-Tronic Turbo Cooling System' is a little misleading,
> regular oil doesn't coke until around 400 degrees F. I know the turbo-life is expensive
> at $300 bucks, but I'll take the pre-oiler/post-oiler of bothe engine and turbo over
> a water cooling system for the turbo anytime. And if you have a oil cooler in place
> the oil's going to cool alot faster. Having a oil pump is going to let you shutdown the
> engine faster(no post-oil starting problems in the turbo). The downside is its not easy
> to install all this extra crap on your engine, all the other systems are detached, that
> is they are not part of the actual engine system, the turbo-life system is integrated
> into the oil system requiring hoses, warning lights on the dash, a oil pump to mount
> someplace. They sell the turbo-life with an oberg filter as an option.
Yikes! You must have typed this on a greater-than-80-column
display. :( Actually, as far as I could tell the Spearco Temp-Tronic
is just a fan, basically. I don't know about the relative effectiveness of
post-shutdown-oil-circulating systems in general vs. the Temp-Tronic, but I
suspect a combination would be the best of all worlds. I.e. the Temp-Tronic
(fan) by itself depends on the heat conducting all the way from the
internals of the turbo etc. out to the surface, where it is cooled by the
fresh air blowing on it. I'm not sure this works great.
Conversely, unless the oil-circulation systems also have integrated
fans/heat-radiators, it seems to me that circulating hot oil won't have all
that much benefit. Somewhere there'd have to be an oil-cooling stage, with
integrated fan or large heat-radiating device. I think most oil-coolers
rely on air being pulled through the engine compartment by either vehicle
movement or by the radiator fan, neither of which applies when the car is
parked.
Thus the best system is an oil-circulating system with integrated
oil-cooling fan. :) I don't know if any of these exist.
(I hope you don't mind me reposting your message to the mods list, Wayne.)
Aaron B.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 09:13:28 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Post-Mod Autoxing with '88 Supra Turbo
You may note that I never really responded much to this thread, although
some of my comments helped fuel it. It's one of those "It is better to
remain silent and be thought ignorant rather than to speak and remove
all doubt" things.
Bottom line: I don't know the "right" answer to these traction
questions, and I've _NEVER_, in all of my reading, found a completely
satisfactory answer to the issue. To me, satisfactory is when some team
of physicists and racers get together and develop a mathematical model
for the entire suspension system that will take into account _all_ of
the variables. I am relatively sure that has been done at some point.
Hey, you guys at the .edu addresses....after you finish the final exams
this semester, why don't you drop by the library and take a quick look?
If anyone could find me a reasonable mathematical model, I'd develop a
program to allow you to punch the data in and see what kinda results
your car would have.
I just (last night) read an article by Don Alexander, writer of
"Performance Engineering" or something like that, and again, I find
myself unsatisfied by his answers. Hmmm, guess I'll have to keep on
reading.
Chris
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 04:22:43 HST
From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Tire traction increases as vertical load increases.
While traction does increase as vertical load increases, it is not a
linear relationship. The vertical load increases more quickly then traction.
For example, if we increase the vertical load by 100%, traction may
increase by only 80%. This principle is crucial to fully understand how
tire traction works on a vehicle.
Keep this relationship in mind: an increase in vertical load will increase
traction, but the traction increase is proportionally smaller then the
increase of vertical load. If the load increase is due to aerodynamic
downforce, the work that the rubber molecules at the tire contact patch
must perform is reduced for a given cornering force (lateral acceleration).
Since the capacity for work done by the rubber molecules is the same as before,
the cornering force (lateral acceleration) can be increased.
In the same way, increasing vertical load on a tire contact patch by adding
weight to the vehicle will increase the traction available. But here is the
big time glitch. Remeber , the traction increase is proportionall smaller then
the weight increase. Since the work required of the tire contact patches is
increasing at a rate porportional to the weight increase, but the traction is
increasing at a SLOWER rate,the lateral acceleration or cornering speed of the
now heavier vehicle is LESS. The extra weight also hurts acceleration and
braking peformance. (Maybe not with a turbo vehicle as it causes the turbo to
in some cases spool up faster thus is why small turbo vehicles are better for
SCCA then larger turbo vehciles... more later on this) For this fact is why
Trans-Am teams yell and scream over a 50LB weight increase. It might appear
that 50LB in a 2,220 lb car with 600hp is insiginificant, but it is
incredible important. (Also see Toyota Mark V in Camel GTP)
For any 2,200 lb car capable of cornering at a lateral acceleration of 1.0g
the addition of 50lb tot the total weight of the vehicle would reduce the
lateral acceleration (cornering force) to 0,984g. On a 200ft diamater skid pad
the time needed to negotiate one lap at 1.0g is 11.04 seconds. The time needed
to negotiate one lap at 0.984g is 11.16 seconds, a one percent increase in
lap times. Since about forty percent of a lap is spent cornering at the limit,
for a lap time of 1 minute 30 seconds for the example car at 1.0g, 36 seconds
is spent corning at the limit. For the car with 50lb extra the time spent
corning at the limit would increase to 36.36 seconds. This does not take into
account the effect on braking performance and acceleration, which would be
about the same loss in time. Top speed is the only factor not affected by
weight increase. So the 50lb costs about .75 second per lap in this example.
In racing terms, that is an eternity.
One factor that helps to explain this phenomenon is the relationship between
vertical load on the tire and the coefficient of friction of the tire. The
coefficient of friction tells us the relative amount of grip that a tire
(in our case) is capable of generating. As vertical load increases, the
coefficient friction decreases. this is a realitively minor loss in grip,
more then offset by the increase in grip as the load increases. It is however,
one factor that explains why the total traction increase with increasing load
is not a liner relationship.
-Koji
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 04:26:55 HST
From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Handling...
The most important aspect of handling is improved traction for the vehicle
as a whole. While improved traction is the key, the goal is to increase
cornering speed, reduce braking distance and enchance acceleration. The tire
is the link to the road and, by itself, is the most important factor in the
handling equation. Additionally, everything else you may change in the
suspension system will ultimately have an effect at the tire contact patch.
Thus,understanding the basics of the tire and how it develops traction is
paramount to making handling improvements.
Start off by thinking as if you were a rubber molecule at the tire contact
patch. The goal of this exercise allows you to understand an important point:
what happens at the tire contact patch is all that counts.
When you attempt to increase traction, the only factor that matters is the
increase in traction not what was done to increase traction. The rubber
molecules at the tire contact patch do not know how they were made to work
harder (nor do they care). They only know that they are now working harder,
helping your vehicle brake,accelerate and corner more quickly.
Increasing Tire Traction
There are three general factors that increase tire traction:
* Increasing the friction between the tire and the road
* Increasing the number of rubber molecules at the tire contact patch.
* Increasing the vertical load on the tire.
Increasing Friction Between Tire and Road
This can occur in two ways. First, the coefficient of friction of the road
surface can increase. The coefficient of friction is an arbitrary measurement
of grip created by a surface. The higher coefficient, the greater the grip.
Roads of varing materials - such as asphalt, concrete, dirt and so on - and in
different states of repair will have different coefficients of friction. This
will let tires grip on the road more firmly. We have no control over this,
short choosing specific roads to drive on.
Second, we can increase the coefficient of friction of the tire. This is
done by choosing a softer rubber compound tire. The softer rubber molecules
will grip the road more firmly, but will also wear more quickly.
Increasing Amount of Rubber at Contact Patch
This can be accomplished in three ways. First, and most obvious, is a wider
tire. Second, we can choose a tire with fewer grooves in the tread, thus
increasing the area of tire contact patch. This has obvious flaws on wet,
slippery surfaces, however.
Finally, and most importantly, the exisiting contact patch area can be
more efficiently utilized by properly tuning the tires and suspension
system so that the maximum number of rubber molecules available are actually
working to their fullest potential.
Increasing Vertical Load on Tire
The traction a given tire can generate increases with vertical load on the
tire. Vertical load is the combination of vehicle weight resting on the tire
contact patch, plus any aerodynamic downforce may be present. The rubber
molecules at the tire contact patch are further pushed into the road surface
as the vertical load increases. This allows the rubber molecules to do more
work.
Contrary to popular belief, the increase in vertical load does not cause the
tire contact patch to grow larger to any significant degree - at least for
the modern, low-profile high-performance or racing tire. The traction increase
is due to the pressure on rubber molecules. Try pushing a rubber eraser across
the smooth surface. It will slide easily with no downward pressure being
applied (vertical load). Now push down on the eraser while sliding it. The
effort needed to move the eraser increases. The harder you push down, the more
traction the eraser is able to generate.
Vertical load can be increased by adding weight to the vehicle, so that tire
contact patch sees more vertical load. While this will increase traction, the
work that each rubber molecule at the tire contact also increases. Cornering
speed, braking distances and acceleration will not improve. In fact,
performance in these categories will actually deteriorate.
-koji
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 07:39:11 PDT
From: wg%rmats1@riem.com (Wayne R. Graves)
Subject: The Oil system reengineering continues...
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
This next week I'm adding a oil cooler and a turbo-life to my 88 Celica Turbo
All Trac. In Hopes of lowering the oil temperature, the delta oil temperature,
prestartup oiling and post-driving oiling/cooling or the worlds hotest toyota
(in degrees F).
I don't know if any of you have seen the turbo-life product, its a kit which
includes a electric oil pump, presure sensers, a temperature senser, a couple
of banjo bolts and a bunch of plastic hose. The idea is to create a secondary
oil pumping system that turns on in one of two cases, the first being when ever
the ignition is turned on and the oil pressure is below 15 PSI, the second
when ever the turbo temperature is above some predetermined value and the
ignition is turned off, the oil pump turns on to carry the heat out of the
turbo. The purpose of the lower pressure sensor/oil pump is to act like a
pre/post oiler and to try to get oil pressure back on those turns where sloshing
in the pan starves the regular pump. The purpose of the temperature sensor is
to stop coking in the turbo. If you don't know about coking, its the effect of
latent heat build up that can exceed 400 degrees F causing regular oil to
actually turn into carbon deposits in the turbo. In any case turbo life is an
alternative to all of those turbo time products that keep your car running after
you stop and since its actually using a seperater electic oil pump it has one
other added feature, it has a valve that can be opened allowing you to turn on
the pump and use it to drain(actually suck) all the oil out of your car for a
easier oil change. So if you hear somebody say it sucks, this is what they are
talking about(ha-ha).
I'd include the address and phone number of the place(in AZ) here but I don't
seem to have it on me. I'll send it out later.
While they have my car down for these things, they are going to MIC the bearings
for wear(just call me paranoid), work on my intermittant started(heat related),
put new tires on it(toyo's I believe) and possibly heat tape some of the of the
area around the turbo. If you didn't know it the engine is this damn care has the
catolitic converter mounted between the ratiator and the engine, adding to the
already over heated engine compartment. Thats why they went to hood scoops in
1990, not for engine intake, but to get air in and out of the engine compartment
and intercooler. Thats when they also added a remote oil cooler(like I am doing
to my 88 now).
Wayne
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: My Supra Story..Supra owners read!
To: ehab@cisco.com (Ehab Aljandali)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 10:52:02 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> Hi guys, I am still here. I think what is happening in your case is that
> the ECU has a memory of 12 psi and is shutting the fuel down. that is why you
> are seeing drop in acceleration. You should never use a VBC. You should get
> an EVC or similar electronic device. You see, You get Spikes of boost when you
> use a mechanical device to control the boost. The EVC controls the boost so
> you never get above the preset level. Once the computers sees the spikes, it
> learns to reduce power as you approach these spikes. You said you set it at 12
> psi which is at the limit, every time you approach that the ECU will retard
> timing OR cut fuel. I know it happend to me. You have to remove the ECU Fuse
> for about 5 minutes to earse the memory.
Ehab, I'm afraid I'm having some trouble figuring out what you're saying
here. The car is currently running fine at ~11.5 PSI (estimated, just shy
of the 12 PSI fuel cutoff). I _was_ seeing the acceleration fall off at 6
PSI before, but after I reconnected everything that problem went away.
I'm not sure how you can get spikes of boost. Because the wastegate
opens gradually from about the middle of it's operating range until it's
fully open at the top of the range, the boost curve starts to level off
before it reaches max boost. That would seem to preclude any significant
boost spike. The boost pressure versus rpm curve would look something like
this:
. . . . .
b .
o .
o .
s .
t .
.
.
.
.
rpm
This agrees more or less with what I see happening on the boost gauge.
What the EVC does is prevent the boost gauge from opening at all until
you hit max boost, so the curve then looks like this:
. . . . . .
b .
o .
o .
s .
t .
.
.
.
.
rpm
I also don't get what you're saying about the ECU remembering when to
reduce fuel flow. Under what conditions are you saying this happens?
> I have installed my PFC-FCON and am getting 14 PSI of boost. It sounds and feels
> great. I am monitering the boost at the intake manifold using a VDO boost gauge.
> This is a must for anybody playing with the boost. Also, Install a mixture
> control gauge to moniter your gas/air ratio (I did). It will tell you if you
> are running lean or reach. This is cheaper than a EGT gauge at $200.
Where did you mount the readout for the boost gauge? How much was the
gas/air ratio gauge, and how much of a pain is it to install? Also, what
was involved in the installation of the PFC-FCON? Inquiring minds want
to know. :)
Also, I have some more info Supra Turbo owners may be interested in.
The Spearco intercooler for the 88-90 Supra is $662. They claim a 24%
decrease in pressure drop and a 22% increase in heat rejection. They also
say something about it working even better with their "Power Improvement
System for the Supra", which I can't seem to find described here anywhere.
Ehab, weren't you looking into water injection before? Here's the
description for Spearco's Turbo Water Injection System:
"Now, from Spearco, the water injection experts, a water
injection system designed specifically for factory turbo cars. This
system reduces air charge temperature on turbocharged engines, with or
without intercoolers, and increases air desnsity resulting in
additional horsepower and torque. On engines equipped with detonation
sensor controlled ignition systems, it will maintain maximum spark
advance even on low octage fuels.
"Features include:
* Compact .4 gallon aluminum reservoir with three mounting
positions for universal placement in the engine
compartment.
* Injects water upstream or downstream of the turbo
* Pump is controlled by an adjustable, O.E. quality pressure
switch
* Kit includes 3 different size, specially designed injector
nozzles
"Part number 980 Turbo Water Injection System $146.00"
Some more interesting stuff from Spearco:
"Temp-Tronic Turbo Cooling System"
"Help save your expensive turbocharger from heat-induced bearing
destruction and eventual failure and costly replacement with this
logical, low-cost method, Temp-Tronic."
"Temp-tronic uses a small, compact, super high-power blower which
can fit in the crowded engine compartment, to blow cool air on your
turbo whenever you park your car. An electronic control module will
operate the blower for 15 minutes, substantially reducing critical
temperature around the bearings caused by heat soak-back from the hot
exhaust manifold and housing.
"Other systems claim to help alleviate this problem by circulating
oil through the turbocharger when the engine is shut down. A good
idea, but not effective since the oil in modern engines is usually more
than 200 degrees F. and can be much higher.
"Other systems idle your engine automatically for a measured time
to help remove heat. Again not a good cure because of hot oil and
continuous heat input to the turbo from the exhaust.
"Most late model factory OE turbocharged vehicles now have
water-cooled bearing housings which were designed to help alleviate the
cokin of oil on the bearing from heat soak back on shut down. Another
good attempt, but not very effective since all modern vehicles usually
maintain coolant temperature of 195 degrees F. for emission purposes
and after shut down, heat soak from the hot exhaust manifold, cylinder
heads, etc. usually takes the coolant temperature beyond 230 degrees F.
to 240 degrees F.
"Temp-tronic immediately begins operating as soon as the ignition
switch is turned off and pumps up to 30cfm of cool, ambient air
directly on the turbocharger to quickly dissipate high heat loads
stored in the exhaust housing and rapidly brings down the temperature
of the bearing housing to minimize coking.
"In addition, this high speed blast of air induces some overall
movement and circulation of super-heated air trapped beneath the hood
and some of this air is purged away, promoting additional cooling to
adjacent components, helping reduce engine compartment heat and thermal
soak back. Tests on a variety of turbocharged vehicles, both OE and
aftermarket, have proven temperature reductions of more than 38% five
minutes after the blower begins to operate and 55% after 15 minutes,
even with turbos with water-coold bearing housings.
"This system was originally used by a prestigious European auto
maker and now is perfected for all vehicles through Spearco research
and technology. Every turbocharged vehicle needs Temp-Tronic!"
"Part number 2-2100: Complete universal kit for all single turbo
vehicles, includes blower and mounting hardware, inlet and outlet flex
ducting, electronic timer module, hardware and detailed installation
instructions.
"Part Number 2-2100 Temp-Tronic System $168.00"
"Intercooler Optimizer - Spray Cooling System for Intercoolers
"Spearco's proven, 16 year technology in water injection has now
been focused on an evaporation cooling spray system to greatly imporve
the cooling performance of any intercooler system. Injecting a
controlled quantity of water into the air entering an engine results in
charge air cooling as the water is evaporated and flashes to vapor.
The same is true as water is sprayed over the ambient air side of an
intercooler. Technically, the cooling takes place by evaporation and
convection. The cooling effect can be very pronounced on a hot, dry
day and basic physics shows us that for every pound of water
evaporated, approximately 1050 BTU of heat is absorbed. Since our
reservoir holds .95 gallon for approximately 8.2 pounds, this equals
8610 BTU!
"For comparison, let's look at a typical 2.5L turbo, intercooled
engine. At maximum rpm and load the intercooler will be rejecting
approximately 900 to 1100 BTU/minute. It is then easy to see that,
even if we get less than ideal spray and coverage of the intercooler,
we can anticipate increased intercooler performance during these
periods of maximum power by 25% to 35%. Depending on charge
temperature and other factors, this can reduce the charge temperature
another 45 degrees to 65 degrees F. A large reduction with a resulting
power increase!
"This system features a small 12V pump and motor which supplies
water at 19 PSI to a special wide-angle spray nozzle for maximum
intercooler coverage. This pump and a solenoid valve are triggered by
a boost pressure switch and the solenoid valve prevents drip or loss of
water if the reservoir is mounted above the level of the nozzle.
"Part number 2-2200: Complete system includes detailed instructions
applicable to all intercooled vehicles, with the choice of four
different spray nozzle mounting methods.
"Part Number 2-2200 Intercooler Optimizer $120.00"
Aaron B.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: My Supra Story..Supra owners read!
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 10:55:06 -0400 (EDT)
I forgot to mention that the price for the K&N "velocity-stack"
cone-type air filter housing & element replacement costs $206.52 for
87-92 Supra Turbos. This is basically equivalent to the HKS
power-flow, except using K&N's oil-paper element rather than the HKS
foam.
Aaron B.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 08:04:41 PDT
From: wg%rmats1@riem.com (Wayne R. Graves)
Subject: Re: My Supra Story..Supra owners read!
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
I think the story on the 'Temp-Tronic Turbo Cooling System' is a little misleading,
regular oil doesn't coke until around 400 degrees F. I know the turbo-life is expensive
at $300 bucks, but I'll take the pre-oiler/post-oiler of bothe engine and turbo over
a water cooling system for the turbo anytime. And if you have a oil cooler in place
the oil's going to cool alot faster. Having a oil pump is going to let you shutdown the
engine faster(no post-oil starting problems in the turbo). The downside is its not easy
to install all this extra crap on your engine, all the other systems are detached, that
is they are not part of the actual engine system, the turbo-life system is integrated
into the oil system requiring hoses, warning lights on the dash, a oil pump to mount
someplace. They sell the turbo-life with an oberg filter as an option.
Wayne
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 11:35:57 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Handling...
Great article on traction from Koji. Here's something I figured out
from my reading last night that relates to Koji's paragraphs on
increasing verticle load on the tire.
As Koji stated, verticle load has two components, weight and aerodynamic
downforce.
Aerodynamic Downforce: Dynamic in magnitude (It changes
depending on how much wind is traveling over the car) and
basically static in direction (it is always pointing down,
exactly what we want :-))
Weight: Dynamic in magnitude (This is due to weight transfer)
and dynamic in direction. If you are pulling 1g in a 2000 lb
car, that means that your weight vector is 2000 lbs down, 2000
pounds in the direction of the centrifugal force, or 1414 lbs at
an angle of 45 degrees below the verticle line in the direciton
of the centrifugal force.
As you can see, the more Aero-force, the better, because it (basically)
never transfers into horizontal load. All, all, all weight will
transfer into horizontal load when you go around a corner, based on the
number of g's your car can pull.
Bottom line: Lighter is better. Splitting this system into 4 tires,
the best way to keep the weight on each tire the lightest it can be is
to put _exactly_ 25% of the weight on each tire at all times. Each tire
can only do so much work. If a 2000 lb car can pull 1 g in a corner
(assuming it is not accelerating/braking) that means each tire is
capable of providing 500 lbs of force if the car is perfectly balanced.
Chris
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 14:50:27 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
EUREKA! I have at least part of our answer to the relationship
between weight and a car's ability to corner.
First, Here are the forces a car experiences when going around a
corner:
<----------(car)---------->
F(in)=u*n F(out)=m*v2/R
In other words the force holding you in a corner is equal to u (mu),
which is the static coefficient of friction, time n, which is the
normal force. Now, two points. First, u doesn't change. Period.
Sorry, folks, its a constant, and unless the composition of the road
surface or the tire changes, u WILL NOT CHANGE. Secondly, n has two
components, W (weight) and A (aerodynamic downforce), such that:
n = W + A
The force trying to pull you out of the corner and into the wall is m
(mass) times v2 (velocity squared) divided by R (the radius of the
turn.) Mass is kinda vague when you're thinking in terms of weight,
so since we know that:
m = W/g
or that m equals W (weight) divided by g (the acceleration of
gravity), we can re-write the first equation like this:
<----------(car)---------->
F(in)=u*(W+A) F(out)=(W*v2)/(g*R)
Obviously, the fastest path around a curve is one that keeps you just
on this side of sliding. That is the same as when F(in) = F(out).
So, setting these equations equal to each other:
u*(W+A) = (W*v2)/(g*R)
or u*(1+A/W) = v2/(g*R)
we can then solve for v2:
v2 = g*R*u*(1+A/w)
Now, gravity isn't changing, and the radius and coefficients of
friction are fixed as well. So we can clearly see that v2 goes to its
maximum of
v2(max) = g*R*u*(A+1)
as the weight W goes towards zero! This assumes you have some positive
amount of A. If not, then you would maximize v2 by maximizing the
weight. Since we know that more weight make for slower
acceleration/deceleration, obviously we want to make our aerodynamic
downforce as large as possible, and the weight as light as possible.
Real-life example: Last Friday night, they ran a special touring
class called "American Winged Bandits". These cars are _smaller_ than
my Celica and much lighter. Basically, they are just a little larger
than "midget" cars, but they have a HUGE, way powerful V8 engine, and
an incredibly huge wing on the roof to add aerodynamic Downforce.
Now, the Late Models (The fastest cars that run at our track,
basically similar to NASCAR cars) turn laps in the low 15 second
range. These "Winged Bandits" are turning laps in the 12's,
_averaging_ nearly 100 mph! On a 1/3 mile low banked oval! Key: Low
weight, high aerodynamic downforce.
Also interesting: How else can you drive corner velocity up? Better
tires (this is obvious) and by taking the largest possible radius turn
(I think John L. mentioned this.)
Note that I've left out real flakey conditions, like where you are so
nose-light that by hitting the brakes in the corner it helps your car
achieve perfect balance. Remember, this is based on the ultimate goal
of setting your car up so that it achieves perfect 25% weight per wheel
balance in the corners.
Hope this helps someone go faster on the track!
Chris
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 15:25:16 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Everyone please excuse my habit of posting thoughts as they occur
to me, rather than after I've fully thought them through. :)
Anyway, we're on the right track (so to speak), folks. The main flaw
with your analysis, Chris, is that we're not really after maximum velocity
through the corner, we're after shortest time through the corner. It's
possible that there may be a smaller radius curve that you can handle, at
less speed, that still gets you through the corner faster than a larger
radius curve at higher speed. I'm not saying this is always the case, or
even sometimes the case, but we haven't proven it _not_ to ever be the case
yet either. I'm going to re-read your post and think about the formulas
some more and see what comes to me. :)
Aaron B.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 15:47:03 EDT
From: msink@aisg.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
My thought is:
The fastest way through a corner is the SMALLEST radius, but here's the
key, without having to lift. Suppose there's a VERY wide turn,
allowing you to go much wider than you need. Example: If you can make
the turn with a 50' radius at WOT, there's no need to make a wider
turn. If you're having to lift with a 50' radius, you need to go wider.
The point is to corner at maximum G's at all times. Most of the time,
turns aren't so wide that you'll be taking a wider turn than you need,
so the widest turn is usually best, BUT if you can make a sharper turn,
and still keep full throttle, that will come out better. These
statement do not account for setting up for the next turn, in wich
case, things might be different. Depending on whether you want to
carry speed into the currect turn, or setup for a higher exit speed out
of the second one.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
To: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Another issue to consider is the subject which sparked this entire
thread: as far as I know, there's no guarantee than while cornering, a 50-50
front-back weight split is going to cause the front and back tires to break
loose at the same time. More likely, real cars do have different cornering
ability from front to back, due to different suspension set-ups, different
size tires, etc. I.e. in my parents' Honda Accord I can enter a corner
perfectly neutral, and it understeers. Therefore I am exceeding the grip of
the front tires, but not the back tires. Holding all else constant, if I
can transfer some of the weight of the car from the back to the front, I am
going thereby going to increase the normal force on those front tires,
thereby increasing their frictional force (barring the change in Cf John
talks about*).
In the graph below, r is the grip provided by the rear tires vs. normal
force, f is the grip provided by the front tires vs. normal force.
r
r
grip r f
r f
r f
f
f
normal force
Let's say the weight of my parents' Honda is X.
r
Y2 R
grip r : f
Y1 r F
r f :
f :
f :
normal force
X/2
If the car has a 50/50 weight distribution in the corner, it is going to
start sliding out of the corner (understeering) when the cornering force
hits Y1, even though the back tires could take Y2 before sliding.
r
Y2 r f
grip R---F---------Y3
Y1 r : f :
r f :
f : :
f : :
normal force
X/3 2X/3
Let's say hypothetically that the _scale_ of the graph works out as I've
indicated above. This means that at X/3 normal force on the rear tires and
2X/3 normal force on the front tires the car will start sliding on all 4
tires at point Y3. Point Y3 is above Y1, therefore the car will corner
faster before slipping at that weight distribution. That weight
distribution can be obtained by braking through the corner.
* If the coefficient of friction for the tires do indeed change, then the
grip vs. normal force curves aren't linear. The above analysis would still
apply unless and until the point that the two lines cross. In order for the
two lines to cross, the front and rear would have to have different rates of
coefficient change, which would be strange if the car had the same tires on
all 4 wheels, or the frictional force would actually have to start
_decreasing_ with increasing normal force, which seems impossible.
So what are the problems with my analysis? :)
Aaron B.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 16:22:06 -0400 (EDT)
The one thing that occurs to me about my last analysis is that if you do
brake to achieve the ideal weight distribution, you are also of course
slowing down. So the picture is not as clear-cut as I made it out to be,
but the argument still applies. Just that rather than having a constant
radius turn during which you are braking and still somehow mystically able
to maintain a constant speed, you have a varying radius corner, with the
smallest radius where you do your braking in order to achieve your weight
distribution, then get pointed in the right direction and cease braking. I
think I'm about to give up on working this out in my head and just go do
some laps and see what I think... :)
Aaron B.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 10:23:12 HST
From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Handling and Aerodynamic Downforce
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 11:35:57 EDT
From: cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Subject: Re: Handling...
>Great article on traction from Koji. Here's something I figured out
>from my reading last night that relates to Koji's paragraphs on
>increasing verticle load on the tire.
>As Koji stated, verticle load has two components, weight and aerodynamic
>downforce.
> Aerodynamic Downforce: Dynamic in magnitude (It changes
> depending on how much wind is traveling over the car) and
> basically static in direction (it is always pointing down,
> exactly what we want :-))
Aerodynamic downforce also increases the vertical load on the tire contact
patch. For cars on the street, this is not a factor worth serious consideration
(but for spirited street driving it is), but on any competition vehicle,
aerodynamics must be considered. Aerodynamic downforce adds to the vertical
load on the tire, but contact patches are pushed harder into the road surface
thus creating more traction. Since the vehicle weighhs the same as before,
the tires have no increase in workload, but have greater capacity to do
work (more traction / kinetic energy) so the vehicle can corner at a
higher rate of speed. Traction for braking and acceleration also increases.
Aerodynamic forces increase with the square of speed. In other words, if the
vehicle speed is doubled. then the aerodynamic forces are four times greater
This relates to downforce, life and drag. Aerodynamics have a much
greater effect at hihgh speed then at low speed. For productiuon based
race cars (us), to a much lesser extent for the street. One of the keys
improved handling is improved aerodynamics. First it is importatnm to
reduce or eliminate aerofynamic lift. Life reduces the vertical load on the
tires and hence the amount of traction. This is best accomplisehed bny
reducing the airflow under the vehicle. Rear spoilers can also reduce
lift or even create a small amount of aeroduynamic downforce.
A Good example is a AE-86. The 1984-1985 AE-86's don't have the little
rubber rear tail. Standard on almost all Ae-86's of 1987 however. That little
tail does improve downward force as seen in 1+ second times on a course.
Same with the 1983 - 1985 Supra's. That rear spoiler on the hatch ($400 boggle)
does help a LOT ! The bigger one on the 1985's work the best.
-Koji (sorry for the mistakes i snuck home while i'm still supposed to be
working ! ack..i need a desk job again ! )
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 16:24:09 EDT
To: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
> Top speed is the only factor not affected by
> weight increase.
Koji, I thought you were talking about a race track. Top speed certainly
is affected, since with less weight you both exit the corner at a higher
initial speed, and you have better acceleration up the straight. That
initial corner exit speed improvement is more significant than it sounds,
since you can carry that extra speed most of the way up the straight.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 10:33:47 HST
From: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Aaron's Query
> The one thing that occurs to me about my last analysis is that if you do
>brake to achieve the ideal weight distribution, you are also of course
>slowing down. So the picture is not as clear-cut as I made it out to be,
>but the argument still applies. Just that rather than having a constant
>radius turn during which you are braking and still somehow mystically able
>to maintain a constant speed, you have a varying radius corner, with the
>smallest radius where you do your braking in order to achieve your weight
>distribution, then get pointed in the right direction and cease braking. I
>think I'm about to give up on working this out in my head and just go do
>some laps and see what I think... :)
Sorry I'm in a hurry else i would reply...
I can tell you this.... thats a driving thing.. i have several videos i dont
mind sharing with the group if that would be of more help.
I could tell you how to drive or such... if thats how you wish...
Of course you can learn all this if you read .rec.car.driving or something
with all the autocrossers on it..but they seem kinna errr i dunno
non sensical on that one... its also mostly car set up...
for instance my car runs faster times then a twin supercharded corvette,
twin turbo Z's and porsche 911's but it can't beat a suzuki swift.
boggle that...
>Aaron B.
-koji
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: My Supra Story..Supra owners read!
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 16:34:13 -0400 (EDT)
*sigh*
> What the EVC does is prevent the boost gauge from opening at all until
^^^^^^^^^^^ "waste gate" instead,
of course
> you hit max boost, so the curve then looks like this:
>
> . . . . . .
> b .
> o .
> o .
> s .
> t .
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> rpm
>
Aaron B.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 16:35:32 EDT
From: msink@aisg.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
It seems top speed is affected by weight.
Top speed is reached when G's in top gear=0
G's are related to weight, so top speed should be affected by weight
That's what my Perofrmance Analyzer shows.
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 16:47:11 EDT
To: msink@aisg.com, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
> It seems top speed is affected by weight.
> Top speed is reached when G's in top gear=0
> G's are related to weight, so top speed should be affected by weight
> That's what my Perofrmance Analyzer shows.
Then it lies. Unless you are not on a level surface, there is no horizontal
component of the weight vector for the thrust vector to oppose.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
To: msink@aisg.com
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 16:47:30 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> It seems top speed is affected by weight.
>
> Top speed is reached when G's in top gear=0
> G's are related to weight, so top speed should be affected by weight
> That's what my Perofrmance Analyzer shows.
The two forces opposing your car are aerodynamic drag and rolling
resistance, right? Aerodynamic drag isn't affected by weight, but I
bet rolling resistance is.
Aaron B.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 16:49:39 -0400 (EDT)
You all might have realized it's been sort of a slack day at work
here... :)
Aaron B.
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 13:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
>It seems top speed is affected by weight.
>
>Top speed is reached when G's in top gear=0
>G's are related to weight, so top speed should be affected by weight
>That's what my Perofrmance Analyzer shows.
I think Galileo is doing handstands in his grave about now :/
Clark
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 16:53:53 EDT
From: msink@aisg.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Another thing showing weight affect top speed.
Motorcycles. TERRIBLE drag, LOW weight, not too much HP is 165+ MPH
Put that engine in a low drag, 2500 lbs car, and skinny tires, and
you still wouldn't see 165 MPH. Too much weight.
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 17:00:24 EDT
To: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu, msink@aisg.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> The two forces opposing your car are aerodynamic drag and rolling
> resistance, right? Aerodynamic drag isn't affected by weight, but I
> bet rolling resistance is.
"Assuming a spherical cow..." Aerodynamic drag probably IS affected by
weight, because the ride height and angle of attack of the car are
affected by weight. That is probably a much stronger effect than that
on the rolling resistance.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 17:03:00 EDT
To: msink@aisg.com, toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
> Another thing showing weight affect top speed.
> Motorcycles. TERRIBLE drag, LOW weight, not too much HP is 165+ MPH
> Put that engine in a low drag, 2500 lbs car, and skinny tires, and
> you still wouldn't see 165 MPH. Too much weight.
This example fails utterly to show anything of the kind. The
reason that a Cd 0.5 motorcycle has a higher top speed than
a Cd 0.2 car with the same engine is that actual drag force
(for a given speed) is proportional to Cd times frontal area.
A car has a lot more frontal area than a bike. The weight
actually has nothing to do with it.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
To: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 17:05:39 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> > The two forces opposing your car are aerodynamic drag and rolling
> > resistance, right? Aerodynamic drag isn't affected by weight, but I
> > bet rolling resistance is.
>
> "Assuming a spherical cow..." Aerodynamic drag probably IS affected by
> weight, because the ride height and angle of attack of the car are
> affected by weight. That is probably a much stronger effect than that
> on the rolling resistance.
Let's put it this way: assuming you have a 2000lb car and a 3000lb car,
it seems to me that you can yourself adjust the ride height and angle of
attack of the 3000lb car to be the same as that of the 2000lb car, by
changing suspension settings. I doubt you can reduce the rolling resistance
of the 3000lb car to be equal to that of the 2000lb car, therefore my claim
that rolling resistance is the more significant factor.
Aaron B.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
To: msink@aisg.com
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 17:09:06 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> Another thing showing weight affect top speed.
>
> Motorcycles. TERRIBLE drag, LOW weight, not too much HP is 165+ MPH
>
> Put that engine in a low drag, 2500 lbs car, and skinny tires, and
> you still wouldn't see 165 MPH. Too much weight.
I believe motorcycles have much worse coefficients of drag than
cars do, but do they really have more total drag (coefficient *
frontal surface area)? Seems improbable, since they have so much less
frontal area than cars do.
Aaron B.
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 17:10:14 EDT
To: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu, lupienj@hpwala.wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> Let's put it this way: assuming you have a 2000lb car and a 3000lb car,
> it seems to me that you can yourself adjust the ride height and angle of
> attack of the 3000lb car to be the same as that of the 2000lb car, by
> changing suspension settings. I doubt you can reduce the rolling resistance
> of the 3000lb car to be equal to that of the 2000lb car, therefore my claim
> that rolling resistance is the more significant factor.
Except that the rolling resistance comes from the bearings and the tires.
The tires will sag unless you pump them up harder under the higher load,
in which case they will have about the same rolling resistance. Bearings
such as are used on cars have very close to the same rolling resistance
regardless of load.
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 14:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
>Another thing showing weight affect top speed.
>Motorcycles. TERRIBLE drag, LOW weight, not too much HP is 165+ MPH
>Put that engine in a low drag, 2500 lbs car, and skinny tires, and
>you still wouldn't see 165 MPH. Too much weight.
I think it's time for you to get off the ice, its starting to look really
thin. You're forgeting the frontal area dependence of the drag force. Think
about it . . .
Clark
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
To: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 17:13:58 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> > Let's put it this way: assuming you have a 2000lb car and a 3000lb car,
> > it seems to me that you can yourself adjust the ride height and angle of
> > attack of the 3000lb car to be the same as that of the 2000lb car, by
> > changing suspension settings. I doubt you can reduce the rolling resistance
> > of the 3000lb car to be equal to that of the 2000lb car, therefore my claim
> > that rolling resistance is the more significant factor.
>
> Except that the rolling resistance comes from the bearings and the tires.
> The tires will sag unless you pump them up harder under the higher load,
> in which case they will have about the same rolling resistance. Bearings
> such as are used on cars have very close to the same rolling resistance
> regardless of load.
I don't know about the rolling resistance of higher-inflated,
more-weight-bearing tires being the same as that of the
lower-inflated, less weight-bearing ones. It doesn't seem likely to
me, but I don't have any evidence one way or the other. Suffice it to
say that until one of us dredges up some evidence one way or the
other, we won't be able to come to any conclusion. :)
Aaron B.
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From: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 17:38:54 EDT
To: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu, cmyer@su102a.ess.harris.com (Chris Myer)
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
> Anyway, we're on the right track (so to speak), folks. The main flaw
> with your analysis, Chris, is that we're not really after maximum velocity
> through the corner, we're after shortest time through the corner. It's
> possible that there may be a smaller radius curve that you can handle, at
> less speed, that still gets you through the corner faster than a larger
> radius curve at higher speed. I'm not saying this is always the case, or
> even sometimes the case, but we haven't proven it _not_ to ever be the case
> yet either. I'm going to re-read your post and think about the formulas
> some more and see what comes to me. :)
Well sure, Aaron, go ahead and take the tight line through the corner. You
will be ahead entering the straight. The guy who takes the higher speed
line (while still hitting the apex) will have a higher speed entering the
straight, and will wail past you halfway to the next turn. Wave goodbye...
--
---
John R. Lupien
lupienj@wal.hp.com
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 15:52:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: SAVE@cpva.saic.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Cc: tkoseki@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Ummm... I thought this all sounded pretty familiar Mr. Alexander, ahh I
mean Mr Kam. :) :) Clark
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Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 18:55:49 EDT
From: msink@aisg.com
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Did you decide that transfering weight, increases a tires coefficient
of friction? If so, wouldn't a heavier car, with a higher coeficient
of friction on all four tires have a lower top speed?
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To: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 16:28:07 -0700
From: danapple@vicor.com
> abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu writes:
> Anyway, we're on the right track (so to speak), folks. The main flaw
> with your analysis, Chris, is that we're not really after maximum velocity
> through the corner, we're after shortest time through the corner.
That may be true sometimes, but not always. Often you want the
highest exit speed, so that on the next straight, you are starting
from a higher speed than the guy next to you.
> Aaron B.
Dan.
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To: msink@aisg.com
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: Re: Vertical Load Effects on Tire Traction
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 94 16:35:18 -0700
From: danapple@vicor.com
> msink@aisg.com writes:
> Another thing showing weight affect top speed.
> Motorcycles. TERRIBLE drag, LOW weight, not too much HP is 165+ MPH
> Put that engine in a low drag, 2500 lbs car, and skinny tires, and
> you still wouldn't see 165 MPH. Too much weight.
Yes you would. It would just take a while to get there. Your
intuition is getting the better of you.
Yes, rolling resistance is a factor, but almost insignificant compared
to aerodynamic resistance.
Dan.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
To: lupienj@wal.hp.com (John Lupien)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 1994 00:52:46 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML),
>
> > Anyway, we're on the right track (so to speak), folks. The main flaw
> > with your analysis, Chris, is that we're not really after maximum velocity
> > through the corner, we're after shortest time through the corner. It's
> > possible that there may be a smaller radius curve that you can handle, at
> > less speed, that still gets you through the corner faster than a larger
> > radius curve at higher speed. I'm not saying this is always the case, or
> > even sometimes the case, but we haven't proven it _not_ to ever be the case
> > yet either. I'm going to re-read your post and think about the formulas
> > some more and see what comes to me. :)
>
> Well sure, Aaron, go ahead and take the tight line through the corner. You
> will be ahead entering the straight. The guy who takes the higher speed
> line (while still hitting the apex) will have a higher speed entering the
> straight, and will wail past you halfway to the next turn. Wave goodbye...
*sigh* First of all, I want to apologize to the rest of the members of
the Toyota modifications list. I'm a bit hypersensitive. I don't ask you
all to change your ways, and I expect you not to ask me to change mine
either. I'm sorry if this post seems overtly hostile, but I'm afraid I have
to take offense at the phrasing John uses in the paragraph above.
Anyway, John, you sound like your statement above is some great
revelation. It's not. I have to say that in most cases I agree with you,
exit speed will most likely overwhelm the effects of time taken in
traversing the corner.
Before you get too smug, I also want to say that I'm glad to see you
don't let science get in the way of "common sense." It is quite plausible
that there will be some conditions in which the time taken by car 1 to
traverse the corner (call it TC1) plus the time taken to accelerate to speed
X (call it TA1) will be less than the time taken by car 2 to traverse the
corner (TC2) at speed X (zero TA2) (TC1 + TA1 < TC2). This probably won't
happen very often, but that wasn't the point. I was arguing that it _could_
happen, and it can. I don't appreciate your snide comments about how people
would be "wailing by me" and how I would be "waving goodbye." Very
colorful, but also very condescending, and I don't find that amusing in the
least.
I've heard all the adages about "if you can't take the heat, stay out of
the kitchen" etc. If that's what's necessary, fine, I'll refrain from
posting any more opinions. But the stress that I feel from responding to
these kind of unjustified attacks is not worth whatever benefits I feel from
sharing my opinions with you all.
Consider this my last post on this subject, or any other to which
John Lupien responds. I don't feel it's worth my time to defend
myself against his snide little comments, so I'm not going to get
involved in arguments that he is concerned with. I don't intend to
read any of your responses, John, since they're probably not worth my
time either. I'll cede the floor to you. If I've misinterpreted your
intentions, I'll read and respond to any message from you with the
subject "truce."
Aaron B.
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From: abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu
Subject: Re: The answer to our weight vs. cornering ability question!
To: danapple@vicor.com
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 1994 01:11:18 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com (Toyota Mods ML)
As an example for my previous post, I take no offense at all from
refuting/amplifying my arguments in this fashion:
> > abuhr@raptor.eng.ufl.edu writes:
>
> > Anyway, we're on the right track (so to speak), folks. The main flaw
> > with your analysis, Chris, is that we're not really after maximum velocity
> > through the corner, we're after shortest time through the corner.
>
> That may be true sometimes, but not always. Often you want the
> highest exit speed, so that on the next straight, you are starting
> from a higher speed than the guy next to you.
Essentially the same thing that John said, but without all the
posturing. I agree on all counts.
Aaron B.
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Date: Sat, 30 Apr 94 10:42:54 EDT
From: fergusos@jeff-lab.queensu.ca (Stephen Ferguson)
To: toyota-mods@su102a.ess.harris.com
Subject: RE: Handling and Aerodynamic Downforce
> Good example is a AE-86. The 1984-1985 AE-86's don't have the little
> rubber rear tail. Standard on almost all Ae-86's of 1987 however. That little
> tail does improve downward force as seen in 1+ second times on a course.
> Same with the 1983 - 1985 Supra's. That rear spoiler on the hatch ($400 boggle)
> does help a LOT ! The bigger one on the 1985's work the best.
Is AE-86 the Corolla GT-S? Up here the 85's had the tail and Toyota dropped
it from the 86 and 87. As for the rear "spoiler" on the Supra, are you
talking about the black one mounted at the top of the window glass.
Toyota listed it as a sunshade, and most auto mags agreed that it had
no real effect on rear lift/downforce.
Stephen
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